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Thread: advice on bladder tank

  1. #1
    DIY Member ugabulldog's Avatar
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    Default advice on bladder tank

    I am planning on running the pipe and wire from my well to house, here's my set-up and plan: Submersible pump is 240' deep, 1h.p. 12g.p.m and well is 365' from house (well was there before house was) I plan on running 1" Sch 40 pvc, and 10/2 w/ ground wire (already checked voltage drop and it is ok) and will put wire in 3/4" conduit. If this hopefully sounds ok, my main question is recommendation on brand/size bladder tank which will be located under crawl space with plenty of vertical room. Not looking for anything fancy, just quality. Thanks

    I thought of another question also, is it better to run galv. pipe, versus pvc, just from the top of well untill it gets underground to keep from freezing or other reason?
    Last edited by ugabulldog; 12-06-2010 at 06:48 PM.

  2. #2
    Moderator valveman's Avatar
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    With a 12 GPM pump, manufacturers recommend a tank that has at least 12 gallons of draw down, which is a minimum of 44 gallon size tank. That just gets your cycling down to a minimum of 2 minutes on and 2 minutes off, which can be 360 cycles per day. Minimum safe cycles per day for that pump is 100. So you really need 3.6 times that large of tank, which is 158 gallon size. Two 85 gallon tanks would be better.

    Or you can use as small as a 4.4 gallon size tank with a Cycle Stop Valve, because the valve controls the cycling.

    Flexcon, Amtrol, Well Mate, are top tank brands on my list.

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    In the Trades Tom Sawyer's Avatar
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    I'd rather see you run poly than PVC but that's just a personal preference. 44gal is the minimum recommended tank size but you can certainly go larger and get more time between cycles. The only drawback to a really big tank is that in a heated space they tend to get warm during the day when nobody's using water so you need ice cubes if you like cold water. On the plus side though, that warmer water drops your water heater bill. Oh yes, the tank. I have always used Amtrols tanks and they give good life and service.


    Gbyall
    Last edited by Tom Sawyer; 12-06-2010 at 03:03 PM. Reason: had to add tank recomendation

  4. #4
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ugabulldog View Post
    I am planning on running the pipe and wire from my well to house, here's my set-up and plan: Submersible pump is 240' deep, 1h.p. 12g.p.m and well is 365' from house (well was there before house was) I plan on running 1" Sch 40 pvc, and 10/2 w/ ground wire (already checked voltage drop and it is ok) and will put wire in 3/4" conduit. If this hopefully sounds ok, my main question is recommendation on brand/size bladder tank which will be located under crawl space with plenty of vertical room. Not looking for anything fancy, just quality. Thanks

    I thought of another question also, is it better to run galv. pipe, versus pvc, just from the top of well untill it gets underground to keep from freezing or other reason?
    You should look into 1" 160 psi rated PE pipe for both th edrop pipe and the line to the house. IMO it is a much better choice and it should cost less and you have only 2 fittings between the well and the house/tank, and 2 down the well.

    And with PE pipe, you don't have to worry about expansion and contraction as you do with PVC. You would roll the PE into the trench as you unroll the roll along side the trench and it will wander from side to side in the trench providing for expansion and contraction where PVC won't do that.

    You can't stop freezing by choosing a different types of material but PE will suffer freezing better than PVC or galvanized. It won't crack like they will/can if frozen solid; like between the 3 elbows you'd have getting it up through a casing cap and then over and down underground and off toward the house within like 3-5' of coming out of the well.

    The best way to stop freezing and worrying about it is a pitless adapter installed through the casing below the frost line depth in your area, then you don't have any water line above the frost line to freeze.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
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  5. #5
    Well Drilling/Service justwater's Avatar
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    shouldnt be concerned with how the water line material stands up to a hard freeze. as stated, freeze is never good for anything.. so i'd leave it all pvc if thats what you choose to run. either winterize the well head (easy to do), or run enough water to cycle the pump a few times during a freeze like many people do. i'm not sure if it would be better for a pipe to go ahead and bust, or to freeze solid and deadhead/ruin the pump. best thing is to never let whatever material u choose freeze.

    never even seen PE pipe so i cant help much with that. but,.. theres nothing wrong with primed and glued pvc pipe (20' sections with glued bells.. bell ends pointed toward the well head). there are several pvc ditches over 20rs old. why should anyone be concerned with expansion and contraction when installing a water line in a ditch underneath a frost line?

    the exposed well heads i can think of around SE only have 2 elbow fittings that could possibly freeze. one at top of well head, running over a few inches to another one that points down to ground. are you sure you've done this type of work before??

    YOU WOULD leave exposed pipe 3-5' from the well head!! in most cases, even a DIYer can get a ditch pipe+wire close enough to an exposed well head that you can (depending on well diam.) put a bucket over all of it. again, i dont think you've ever actually done this stuff before...

    was 26 here last night. maybe there should be pitless adapters in FL too? lol


    ** i think the OP is on the right track. 365' is a nice shot, youd only wanna do it once and make it last. if ever planning on a larger pump and/or irrigation, i might drop 1.25"-1.5" sch. 40 in the ditch instead of 1". i'd go 50-60gal pressure tank if it was mine (flexcon and well-x-trol are the only tanks imo). if planning on using the cycle stop valve, i personally wouldnt use smaller than a 20gal tank with the valve.. just personal preference. should work very well whichever way you choose to go on that. good luck!
    Last edited by Gary Slusser; 12-08-2010 at 05:46 PM. Reason: removed personal attack comments

  6. #6
    Well Drilling/Service justwater's Avatar
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    hey ballvalve.. have you ever seen the pe freeze completely solid on a pump line before tank? just wondering if with an offset tank and switch, if it ever deadheads and ruins a pump/well when this happens? pvc will just bust and blow water, and i've never seen it cold long enough here to do much damage to steel pipe. unless properly prepared, OP could run into some of these issues being in N GA.
    Last edited by Gary Slusser; 12-08-2010 at 12:06 PM. Reason: edited out harassment

  7. #7
    General Engineering Contractor ballvalve's Avatar
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    I have pvc that never breaks when it freezes, seems like its a random thing. I always put a pressure relief valve right on a tee on the well cap, so that might help.
    Last edited by Gary Slusser; 12-08-2010 at 12:07 PM. Reason: edited out harassment

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    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by justwater View Post
    shouldnt be concerned with how the water line material stands up to a hard freeze. as stated, freeze is never good for anything.. so i'd leave it all pvc if thats what you choose to run. either winterize the well head (easy to do), or run enough water to cycle the pump a few times during a freeze like many people do. i'm not sure if it would be better for a pipe to go ahead and bust, or to freeze solid and deadhead/ruin the pump. best thing is to never let whatever material u choose freeze.
    PVC breaks when frozen long enough; read like as little as 12-15 hrs. PE does not and can be frozen solid for days or weeks without breaking.

    The best way to insure no freezing is to use a pitless adapter below the frost line for the area.

    Quote Originally Posted by justwater View Post
    never even seen PE pipe so i cant help much with that. but,.. theres nothing wrong with primed and glued pvc pipe (20' sections with glued bells.. bell ends pointed toward the well head). there are several pvc ditches over 20rs old. why should anyone be concerned with expansion and contraction when installing a water line in a ditch underneath a frost line?
    In the south where freezing isn't the problem it is in the rest of the country, expansion and contraction happens because the water line is only a foot or so under the surface and that is usually sandy soil. Sun heats it up and after sundown it cools.

    Quote Originally Posted by justwater View Post
    the exposed well heads i can think of around SE only have 2 elbow fittings that could possibly freeze. one at top of well head, running over a few inches to another one that points down to ground. are you sure you've done this type of work before??

    YOU WOULD leave exposed pipe 3-5' from the well head!! in most cases, even a DIYer can get a ditch pipe+wire close enough to an exposed well head that you can (depending on well diam.) put a bucket over all of it. again, i dont think you've ever actually done this stuff before...
    You forgot the third elbow, the one underground by the side of the casing to get the line going toward the house.

    So from the top of the well, over the few inches off the side of the casing and then down to below grade and then another el going toward the house is usually 3-5' of exposed pipe in my calculation. And my experience is that in the south much of the residential water line is not buried below the frost line. BTW, if I heard the report correctly this morning I think there was a 156 yr old cold record broken last night in south FL.

    Quote Originally Posted by justwater View Post
    was 26 here last night. maybe there should be pitless adapters in FL too? lol
    Wheres' here, recall you deleted your personal and location info. Anyway, rather than doing some sort of well head isulation that doesn't last well in the FL sun, a pitless adapter for like $100 installed is the best choice for all concerns. They last decades with no maintenance required and all that sticks up out of the ground is the well casing about a foot and a piece of electrical conduit up against the casing. Then using PE pipe for the drop pipe, DIYers can pull their pump themselves fairly easily; especially in the south where the pump usually isn't much below 150'

    Quote Originally Posted by justwater View Post
    ** i think the OP is on the right track. 365' is a nice shot, youd only wanna do it once and make it last. if ever planning on a larger pump and/or irrigation, i might drop 1.25"-1.5" sch. 40 in the ditch instead of 1". i'd go 50-60gal pressure tank if it was mine (flexcon and well-x-trol are the only tanks imo). if planning on using the cycle stop valve, i personally wouldnt use smaller than a 20gal tank with the valve.. just personal preference. should work very well whichever way you choose to go on that. good luck!
    IIRC PE pipe has the least pressure loss/ft of any normally used water line material AND there are only two fittings; one on each end of the line. In 365' using 20' lengths of PVC there are many couplers causing pressure loss and with the possibility of leaks that are very difficult to locate and very difficult to fix because you can't pull any of the PVC either way to put in two couplers and a piece of PVC where you cut out the leaking joint or to install a repair coupler in some cases. Recall the PE wandering from side to side in the trench? That allows some slack if you ever need any.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  9. #9
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by justwater View Post
    ... have you ever seen the pe freeze completely solid on a pump line before tank? just wondering if with an offset tank and switch, if it ever deadheads and ruins a pump/well when this happens? pvc will just bust and blow water, and i've never seen it cold long enough here to do much damage to steel pipe. unless properly prepared, OP could run into some of these issues being in N GA.
    I have seen it a fair number of times in PA but don't recall pump deadheading being a problem. I've seen galvanized split in old houses where it was used to come through the cellar wall to the tank.

    My comments to OPs are usually based on his location.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  10. #10
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ballvalve View Post
    I always put a pressure relief valve right on a tee on the well cap, so that might help.
    IMO a better choice would be a pitless adapter below the frost line.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  11. #11
    General Engineering Contractor ballvalve's Avatar
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    IIRC PE pipe has the least pressure loss/ft of any normally used water line material AND there are only two fittings; one on each end of the line. In 365' using 20' lengths of PVC there are many couplers causing pressure loss and with the possibility of leaks that are very difficult to locate and very difficult to fix because you can't pull any of the PVC either way to put in two couplers and a piece of PVC where you cut out the leaking joint or to install a repair coupler in some cases. Recall the PE wandering from side to side in the trench? That allows some slack if you ever need any
    .
    And did you know, Racina, that PE pipe can be bought PRE-insulated so you can use it between buildings and from house to well head?

  12. #12
    Well Drilling/Service justwater's Avatar
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    *balvalve.. what do you mean insulated? is the insulation stuck to the pipe? like with tape or glue? thats pretty cool actually.**
    Last edited by justwater; 12-08-2010 at 12:49 PM. Reason: edited out harassment of myself

  13. #13
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ballvalve View Post
    . And did you know, Racina, that PE pipe can be bought PRE-insulated so you can use it between buildings and from house to well head?
    Am I spelling your previous member name wrong? If so I apologize, that was not intended.

    Yes you could misapply that pre insulated PEX anywhere you wanted to.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

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