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Thread: New member's questions. pressure tank sizing

  1. #16
    Well Drilling/Service justwater's Avatar
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    No prob. Glad u went for the 19gal instead of a tiny tank. the pump in the pic is sitting on a 19-20gal.. works great. Let us know how it turns out!

  2. #17
    Moderator valveman's Avatar
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    The Cycle Stop Valve was introduced in 1993. So anyone in this business who hasn’t heard of them, probably doesn’t get out much. What’s worse are the ones who have heard of them, and either act like they haven’t or try to discredit them so they can sell you a larger tank and replace your pump more often. Just Google CSV or Cycle Stop Valves and you will find plenty to read. Yes you can always add a CSV later and you will need to. Because a 19 gallon tank only holds about 5 gallons of water and your pump will still cycle on and off a lot without a CSV.

  3. #18
    DIY Junior Member DeeJay's Avatar
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    I did another search and came up with a Canadian connection, through Lloyd Ingram, who I assume is the Cdn. distributor. I've sent him an email for information re: pricing and availability etc..
    However, though I've called and emailed numerous friends/neighbours whom I know to be on wells, plus asked every tradesman I've run into since finding this site, no one has heard of the CSV.
    Looks like what's needed is some advertising up here.

  4. #19
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ballvalve View Post
    Micronizer or schrader, its been done for the past 100 years. And you must be speaking only of galvanized pipe, as plastic and pex is not sticky to iron or anything else. Never saw a copper line closed up either.
    You must not do much water treatment or haven't serviced air injection systems.

    I have seen up to 1" CPVC and PVC, and PE, all but blocked solid with rust. Some with as little as a 1/4" hole for maybe 6-8 feet into a gas off vent tank or inlet to a backwashed filter. It depends on how much iron is in the water. And that is why air injection is not a good choice for water treatment; that's anything with a venturi, like a Micronizer.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  5. #20
    General Engineering Contractor ballvalve's Avatar
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    You are discussing treating weird water with a micronizer. I am discussing adding air to a standard pressure tank. Not comparable.

    Cut open acres of old plastic pipe and never found any crust inside. Never played with Florida water or perhaps something from old faithful geyser in Yellowstone.

    Around here the water treatment guys are like travelling tonic salesmen from 1850. Take your money and run with a piece of crap equipment left behind that causes endless grief. Better to drink bottled water and bathe in the untreated and un-cheated water.

  6. #21
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    A standard pressure tank has a bladder in it, no need for adding air to the water like was done 50 years ago.

    I never played with water in FL or any geysers but plenty of water with iron it and Micronizers.

    Around where I'm from raucina, there are a bunch of handymen type drillers etc. that throw duct tape and bailing wire at everything they can. They've never seen a bladder tank they could say anything good about yet; they love galvanized air over water types. They charge a bunch for being stuck in the '50s and they know nothing about water quality except it shouldn't have any smell, color or things floating in or on it. To them, that's good 'sweet' water man. Little do they know.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  7. #22
    General Engineering Contractor ballvalve's Avatar
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    A "standard" tank still has no bladder. A bladder or diaphrgm tank has a seperation device.

    Edited out personal attack.
    Last edited by Gary Slusser; 11-22-2010 at 11:14 PM. Reason: personal attack

  8. #23
    DIY Junior Member Elton Noway's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeJay View Post
    Just back from a run to the city to buy a bladder tank for next week. While in HD, I spoke with the head plumbing guy, who had never heard of a CSV, so the mystery continues.
    To be honest... the last person to probably be familiar with the CSV would probably be a HD employee. Also, unless your plumber is the well and pump expert in your area theres a good chance he may not have heard of it either. Valveman will hopefully correct me if I'm wrong but I think the CSV valves have been around in the neighborhood of 12-15 years. I had to do some investigating to find info on the CSV but once I started checking around I found enough data and success stories on the CSV to take the plunge. (FYI: I purchased mine from a distributor on ****) and saved quite a bit off suggested retail.)

    I went though a similar ordeal a couple weeks ago when my 125 gallon pressure tank let go. It was suggested I check out the CSV valve option as well. Eventually I settled on the pside-kick (made by the folks at CSV). I went for it because it includes the pressure tank and is a complete kit. (i.e., no thinking required)

    See >this link< for an animated demonstration of how the CSV works.

    NOTE: If you decide to put in a CSV ... and since it will be inside... I'd suggest the CSV1W (bronze body) over the CSV1 (plastic body). Both will perform the same function but there have been reports of the plastic body leaking at the o-ring in the situation where all the plumbing connections we not properly lined up or if there is any undue force on the valve.
    Last edited by Elton Noway; 11-22-2010 at 02:17 PM.

  9. #24
    DIY Junior Member DeeJay's Avatar
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    I continue to read any input posters here may provide re: CSV's. Thank you.
    This morning I received an email from the Canadian connection for CSV in Canada. He gave me a toll-free number (Here it is for interested Canadians : Well Busters 1 866 968 1474, in Belleville Ont.)
    I haven't had a chance to call them yet- the reno started today so I worked 7:30-5:30. The old pump went out today- we did the repair on the wall behind it- and the new pump and tank and charcoal filter go in tomorrow, too soon for a CSV to arrive.
    However, when I get the price and info, I'll post it here for the benefit of others like myself who are just learning about the product.

  10. #25
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ballvalve View Post
    A "standard" tank still has no bladder. A bladder or diaphrgm tank has a seperation device.

    Edited out personal attack.
    The "standard" tank today is called a bladder tank although most do not have a bladder as you point out. The galvanized tank you propose has no barrier between the air in the top of the tank and the water in the bottom of the tank. Air, oxygen actually, is an oxidizer and an oxidizer converts ferrous soluble iron into ferric insoluble iron called rust by most and air also oxidizes everything else in water that can be oxidized, like manganese and H2S etc. and that oxidation causes particulate matter commonly called sediment. That sediment will cling to and build up on the inside of the pipe.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  11. #26
    Porky Cutter,MGWC Porky's Avatar
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    The reason that people haven't heard of the Cycle Stop Valves is that they don't attend the Water Well Expositions in their state or reigon, therefore they aren't up with the times. The CSV has been proven and in the ground water industry for fifteen years. I suggest that you call CSV at 806-885-4445 where you can order the valve directly or go to http://www.cyclestopvalves.com to learn more about CSV's. I would have purchased the CSV's Pside-Kick and eleminated the large tank and all the problems!
    Porky Cutter, MGWC
    (Master Ground Water Consultant)

  12. #27
    Well Drilling/Service justwater's Avatar
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    His plan with 19 gal tank and the CSV will be far superior to sidekick IMO. Bigger tank is always gonna be better than a smaller one.. CSV or not.

  13. #28
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Why do you believe that the larger tank is better?
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  14. #29
    Well Drilling/Service justwater's Avatar
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    So the pump doesnt cycle every time u flush a toilet, or run more than a gallon of water like everyone does when they open a faucet. Now he'll be able to run like 6 gallons, and have the CSV to keep from cycling when steady water is in demand.. Sidekick would cycle the pump much more than the 19gal for every day water uses that isn't steady flow.. Basically common sense is why I prefer the bigger tank for residential use.

  15. #30
    Moderator valveman's Avatar
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    I use to think the same thing. As a matter of fact I think the “tank sizing” information on my web page still says to use a minimum of 5 gallon draw down for a single house. After 18 years and a few hundred pump installers telling me the little tanks work just fine, I had to change my mind. I did many cycle and run time test on homes, duplexes, cities, etc., over the years. If there is any irrigation on a single home system, the CSV saves so many cycles during those low flow irrigation zones, that it more than makes up for a cycle every time a toilet is flushed. Also, if you have 1 minute of run time before the pump shuts off, people in a single home will usually turn on another water using appliance before the pump has run for 1 minute. So the pump only cycles once per each person in the home during times of water use. Brush your teeth, within a minute flush a toilet, within another minute start the shower, and the pump only cycled once the entire time you were in the bathroom. Or for those times when multiple flushes are required, as long as you flush again within a minute, the pump will not cycle during 1000 flushes. Waiting longer than a minute “after” the toilet stops filling, before flushing a second time, is the only way the pump will cycle at all.

    For a standard home there is very little difference in the number of pump cycles between a CSV system and a tank with 1 gallon of draw compared to a tank with 5 gallons of draw. My original tank sizing instruction from 18 years ago always used the worst-case scenario. The worst-case being GPM leaking 24 hours a day. Then a tank with 5 gallons of draw, will keep the pump from cycling more than the maximum number of cycles per day, recommended by the motor manufacturer. However, if you have a 720 gallon per day leak (1/2 GPM), the leak needs to be fixed don’t just add a larger tank.

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