Grounding I beams on doublewide

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reed50

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Do the I beams on our vinyl sided doublewide need to be grounded? I have read conflicting opinions on the internet on this subject. One opinion was that since they are bolted to the wooden floor joists, it was not necessary. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.
 

Jetlag

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You have to bond the metal frame to the inside panel with a # 8 solid copper . I will find the code for you later today
 

JWelectric

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550.16 (C) Bonding of Non–Current-Carrying Metal Parts.
(1) Exposed Non–Current-Carrying Metal Parts. All exposed non–current-carrying metal parts that may become energized shall be effectively bonded to the grounding terminal or enclosure of the distribution panelboard. A bonding conductor shall be connected between the distribution panelboard and accessible terminal on the chassis.
 

Jetlag

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550.16 (C) Bonding of Non–Current-Carrying Metal Parts.
(1) Exposed Non–Current-Carrying Metal Parts. All exposed non–current-carrying metal parts that may become energized shall be effectively bonded to the grounding terminal or enclosure of the distribution panelboard. A bonding conductor shall be connected between the distribution panelboard and accessible terminal on the chassis.

Good work JW I thought it said #8 somewhere , but thats what we use anyway and it passes inspection . There should be a terminal already on the frame from the mfg. but if not , one must be installed .
 

Ballvalve

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550.16 (C) Bonding of Non–Current-Carrying Metal Parts.
(1) Exposed Non–Current-Carrying Metal Parts. All exposed non–current-carrying metal parts that may become energized shall be effectively bonded to the grounding terminal or enclosure of the distribution panelboard. A bonding conductor shall be connected between the distribution panelboard and accessible terminal on the chassis.

Good work,great find!

I suppose that means that gutters, metal roofs, stucco lath, and shower/toilet grab bars should be bonded.

They are non current carrying metal parts that may become energized as often as the beams under a mobile home under some bizarre circumstance. This is the wisdom of the NEC.

What energizes a beam in a mobile home as often as a grab bar? Answer: A tornado.

Might as well bond all door hinges and metal sills too, as the installer may have used a long screw that after several years of vibration, penetrates the romex sheath and contacts the hot wire. Let's add in wall mounted door stops too.

NEC will make all housing outside of a shopping cart unaffordable, given enough time and government worker ants that enforce such .
Which brings us full circle to Thatguys genius link on regulatory capture:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture
 
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Jimbo

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Just curious.....is the NEC even applicable to a mobile home? Does it apply to an RV?

I ask because UPC and state/city plumbing codes do not apply to mobile homes, nor do city permit requirements. At least here in CA, mobile homes are governed by the vehicle code onlyl.
 

JWelectric

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It seems as though that in every public discussion there are some who think that the world is conspiring to cause them harm. They are so wrapped in their self that they think that everything must revolve around them and they are the only ones who count. In the world of economics this is known as negative externality or someone who stands on unfounded information screaming at the top of their lungs of the conspiracy theory.

I suppose that when there is a subject such as the NEC and one does not fully understand its purpose or has little or no knowledge of its content then to belittle and degrade it would be one way of making one look intelligent and powerful in their own mind.
For us that have a full understanding of the purpose of the NEC and know its content can only look at these idiots as just what they are, someone with little or no knowledge of what they are trying so hard to convince their self that they are experts in.

But when these same factionists start posting information that is not only wrong but has a life safety issue such as telling the untrained to open a panel and start probing around in that panel with a crudely made voltage indicator then it is the responsibility and duty of those in the know to do something about this idiotic advice.

In most residential service panels there are at least 10,000 amps of available heat energy waiting to be released. This is enough heat to raise the temperature of one gallon of water 34,000 degrees in one minute. How much blood does the body have?
Now for someone who knows just enough to be dangerous this simple matter is unheard of. They have no idea of the safety issues involved nor the rules they are required to adhere to in order to open this panel. All they know is what they have been told or saw some other idiot doing.

As an employer I am required to ensure the safety of my employees and to ensure that they carry out their duties in a safe manner. The rules mandated by the Department Of Labor OSHA clearly state that in order to open a single phase 240 volt panel for testing electrical circuits the person would need to have the following; safety glasses, voltage rated gloves, fire retardant clothing, and voltage rated tools. I wonder who did the voltage rating on the pig-tailed lamp holder.

Is this panel somehow safer or less dangerous for the home owner or do-it-yourselfer than for an employee? If not then why would someone start telling the inexperienced to do unsafe things? Is it just to prove just how ignorant that the poster is or could it be the lack of knowledge that the person does not recognize the danger they are putting someone in with their advice?

My Grandpa once said something that I truly did not understand until I got a little older. He said, “It is better to be silent and thought a fool than to open thou mouth and let it be known.â€
I see this each and every day on these discussion forums.
 

JWelectric

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Just curious.....is the NEC even applicable to a mobile home? Does it apply to an RV?

I ask because UPC and state/city plumbing codes do not apply to mobile homes, nor do city permit requirements. At least here in CA, mobile homes are governed by the vehicle code onlyl.

Yes see these two articles

ARTICLE 550
Mobile Homes, Manufactured Homes,
and Mobile Home Parks


ARTICLE 551
Recreational Vehicles and Recreational
Vehicle Parks

The things the NEC does not govern but there are NFPA publications that do govern part of these.
(B) Not Covered. This Code does not cover the following:
(1) Installations in ships, watercraft other than floating buildings, railway rolling stock, aircraft, or automotive vehicles other than mobile homes and recreational vehicles
FPN: Although the scope of this Code indicates that the Code does not cover installations in ships, portions of this Code are incorporated by reference into Title 46, Code of Federal Regulations, Parts 110–113.
(2) Installations underground in mines and self-propelled mobile surface mining machinery and its attendant electrical trailing cable
(3) Installations of railways for generation, transformation, transmission, or distribution of power used exclusively for operation of rolling stock or installations used exclusively for signaling and communications purposes
(4) Installations of communications equipment under the exclusive control of communications utilities located outdoors or in building spaces used exclusively for such installations
(5) Installations under the exclusive control of an electric utility where such installations
a. Consist of service drops or service laterals, and associated metering, or
b. Are located in legally established easements or rights-of-way designated by or recognized by public service commissions, utility commissions, or other regulatory agencies having jurisdiction for such installations, or
c. Are on property owned or leased by the electric utility for the purpose of communications, metering, generation, control, transformation, transmission, or distribution of electric energy.
 

hj

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I once went into a friend's mobile home. I was carrying my "TicTracer" and it was turned on. As soon as I got close to it, the TicTracer started beeping. The shell of the home was "hot", and the only thing that kept them from getting a shock was that the porches were wood so they were not grounded when they touched the doors. Just having wood floors, etc., does NOT prevent potential problems if the metal parts were to become energized. Bonding them to the ground should prevent it from happening when the circuit breaker for the defective area is tripped.
 

JWelectric

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Good work JW I thought it said #8 somewhere , but thats what we use anyway and it passes inspection . There should be a terminal already on the frame from the mfg. but if not , one must be installed .

A complete read of that section shows that you are correct with the #8

(C) Bonding of Non–Current-Carrying Metal Parts.
(1) Exposed Non–Current-Carrying Metal Parts. All exposed non–current-carrying metal parts that may become energized shall be effectively bonded to the grounding terminal or enclosure of the distribution panelboard. A bonding conductor shall be connected between the distribution panelboard and accessible terminal on the chassis.
(2) Grounding Terminals. Grounding terminals shall be of the solderless type and listed as pressure-terminal connectors recognized for the wire size used. The bonding conductor shall be solid or stranded, insulated or bare, and shall be 8 AWG copper minimum, or equivalent. The bonding conductor shall be routed so as not to be exposed to physical damage.
(3) Metallic Piping and Ducts. Metallic gas, water, and waste pipes and metallic air-circulating ducts shall be considered bonded if they are connected to the terminal on the chassis [see 550.16(C)(1)] by clamps, solderless connectors, or by suitable grounding-type straps.
(4) Metallic Roof and Exterior Coverings. Any metallic roof and exterior covering shall be considered bonded if the following conditions are met:
(1) The metal panels overlap one another and are securely attached to the wood or metal frame parts by metallic fasteners.
(2) The lower panel of the metallic exterior covering is secured by metallic fasteners at a cross member of the chassis by two metal straps per mobile home unit or section at opposite ends.
The bonding strap material shall be a minimum of 100 mm (4 in.) in width of material equivalent to the skin or a material of equal or better electrical conductivity. The straps shall be fastened with paint-penetrating fittings such as screws and starwashers or equivalent.
 

Ballvalve

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How many of you guys open your electric panels wearing your firemans jacket, haz-mat suit, safety glasses, and rubber gloves?

And how many of you stand in a puddle with flip-flops on , lick your fingers and grab the bars coming in from the meter?

Average joe never opens his panel, but even above average electricians open house panels in their polyester shirts and shorts in this tri-county area.

Granpa told me to never blindly follow a law, because it was a clear indication of a simple minded person, and the laws he grew up under were like a giant thumb pushing down on his head.

He was silent most of the time because to have a political conversation, he had to take a walk deep into the forest. This is the result of fools making laws and running countries.

Since about 90% of Americans never leave North America, they have no clue what happens when big brother takes over, regulating every move of your body.

The other 9% that travel to Europe and points east never leave the tour group or 5 star hotel and the "sights". Wanna see what the world could be like? Get in a nice car with a 2 cycle engine, and drive across Russian and the Ukraine in 1990. Be sure to hire a bodyguard.

And NOW the NEC will ask [make!] us to bond the aluminum steps available for mobile homes to the siding and add a few ground rods for the same. Exothermic welding required.
 
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Ballvalve

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They do not get killed by their 240 volts nearly as often as the Americans "protected" by the NEC because most of their standard plug sockets are recessed.

Thus they cannot be connected [bridged] by a kid with an airplane wing when the basic USA [NEC approved] plug is hanging half out of the socket.

If the NEC mandated recessed SAFE sockets and plugs, they would finally be doing something useful.

And if we used 240V in the house, we would save 2.524 trillion tons of copper each year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Schuko_plug_and_socket.png

ATTENTION NEC: Study this and get some common sense, instead of telling use to wear a rain coat when opening a electrical panel. [raincoat to be UL listed and NEC approved]
 
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Jim Port

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Three electricians on this forum should save your collective energy by not replying to my risk assessment reply; I can't see/read your answers.

Nothing like an open mind.

I thought this forum was to help DIYs with questions by providing correct answers, not spreading conspiracy therories on a public soap box. I am sure there are appropriate sites for that.
 

Ballvalve

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I thought this forum was to help DIYs with questions by providing correct answers, not spreading conspiracy therories on a public soap box. I am sure there are appropriate sites for that.

EDIT: thatguy had a post deleted that wondered why europeans do not die often with 240V receptacles and appliances.

Absolutely absurdly designed American plugs and sockets are a disgrace and a most appropriate subject.

Because of their design, NEC probably should require GFCI's on ALL receptacles.

I dont see any conspiracy theories here, I see valid questions opened.

Why does the NEC allow two bare wires likely exposed to the public in every house in America?

One answer is that the the Europe shielded plugs outlast almost every appliance utilizing them, and industry would loose a big market.

And your wife can't unplug the vacuum by pulling at a 45' angle from 20' away.

Another answer is that the NEC might be a gutless captured organization.
 
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Jim Port

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While I see some changes that I would question, I would not say that a consensus based panel is a captured organization. As was said by JW, the form to sumbit changes is in the book and available to everyone. Submit to your hearts desire and change it.
 

Ian Gills

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I think Ballvalve is right. I am disgusted at the terrible design of American plugs and receptacles.

We do have much higher standards in England because we value life more than you do here, but these are the babies we're used to:

UK_PUGS.jpg
 
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Jetlag

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I once went into a friend's mobile home. I was carrying my "TicTracer" and it was turned on. As soon as I got close to it, the TicTracer started beeping. The shell of the home was "hot", and the only thing that kept them from getting a shock was that the porches were wood so they were not grounded when they touched the doors. Just having wood floors, etc., does NOT prevent potential problems if the metal parts were to become energized. Bonding them to the ground should prevent it from happening when the circuit breaker for the defective area is tripped.

I had a regular customer that a lot of mobile homes in what I called a religious compound of some kind . On one of the mobile homes they wanted an electric water heater installed instead of the gas . They warned me people that go under it have complained of getting shocked by the frame . I told them we need to fix that first before running more circuits . They also had wood porches , the short was so bad i could push one lead of my volt meter in the wet dirt by a water faucet and the other lead to the frame and read 120 volt . Only thing that saved them was it had vinyl siding instead of aluminum . I never did find the short but I found the breaker that tripped when I ran the ground bond from the frame to the panel . someone had removed it . As luck would have it nothing was found that the breaker turned off . So I just clipped the line off outside of the box . I have often wonder if some one set a boobie trap for them since no outlets were connected to the breaker . There were other weird things that happened out there .
 

Jetlag

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I think Ballvalve is right. I am disgusted at the terrible design of American plugs and receptacles.

We do have much higher standards in England because we value life more than you do here, but these are the babies we're used to:

UK_PUGS.jpg

I like the heavy duty prongs on that plug , most of the fires here are caused by a receptacle that is no longer tight on the prongs of the plug , they get by until some leaves a portable floor heater on , pulling 16 amp , the arc and poor connecting overheats and catches the conductors on fire .
 

Ballvalve

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Now, let us consider why our little slivers of stamped floppy copper prongs are truly pathetic:

The Europeans using 240v are splitting that 16 amp draw between 2 of those heavy prongs, and we have it all on one wire.

They can wire with 18 and 16 gauge wire and yet pull voltage through plug prongs that the USA would reserve for 50 or 80 amp plugs.

Then, the English have "ring" circuits, a truly interesting means of safety and copper saving.

One place they really screwed up was the use of 50HZ, and they regret it now.

http://users.telenet.be/worldstandards/electricity.htm#voltage

Here is a great site to see where America, japan and Italy have failed the consumer with their plugs. And how to design a great one.

http://users.telenet.be/worldstandards/electricity.htm#plugs

One thing America got correct was 60 HZ and 3 Phase power with a choice of voltage combinations.

Instead of worrying about grounding mobile home frames and GFCI's in carwashes, , the NEC should take a tour from England to Russia and learn a few things about keeping kids and even adults alive when they plug something in.
 
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Jetlag

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I thought this forum was to help DIYs with questions by providing correct answers, not spreading conspiracy therories on a public soap box. I am sure there are appropriate sites for that.

EDIT: thatguy had a post deleted that wondered why europeans do not die often with 240V receptacles and appliances.

Absolutely absurdly designed American plugs and sockets are a disgrace and a most appropriate subject.

Because of their design, NEC probably should require GFCI's on ALL receptacles.

I dont see any conspiracy theories here, I see valid questions opened.

Why does the NEC allow two bare wires likely exposed to the public in every house in America?

One answer is that the the Europe shielded plugs outlast almost every appliance utilizing them, and industry would loose a big market.

And your wife can't unplug the vacuum by pulling at a 45' angle from 20' away.

Another answer is that the NEC might be a gutless captured organization.

Here is one for you to chew on , in 2011 code every switch box in a house must contain a neutral wire , no matter if it is needed or not . Reason , so if a DIY needs a neutral for some thing later, he wont tie into the bare ground and use it for a neutral .
 
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