Flushometer Low Flow Issue

[Robert Walser]

Hello There,

I had a faulty old REX valve which was over 30 years old, parts were getting hard to find and performance dropped off over the years so it has been replaced with a brand new Royal Sloan Flushometer. Now I believe the old Rex and the new Sloan under-perform due to a lessening of water pressure in the system. It takes about six flushes to clear the bowl.
Over the past 22 years flow has decreased considerably. I live on the 4th floor of an old loft building in NYC. Water pressure gets worse every year. My research tells me that a 5 gallon thermal expansion tank placed in line with the feed will increase the water pressure enough so The Sloan will flush and fill compleately with one pull of the handle.
Well, to me, that sounds like heaven!

So I just bought a Utilitech 5 gallon tank. I am ready to install. There is a 1" copper feed to the toilet. A few questions: how close to the Flushometer should this thing be placed? What is the ideal pressure for the expansion tank? The Factory pressurized it at 25 psi. Do I need to place a pressure dial in line with the feed or can I simply check the tank with a tire pressure gauge? Should the tank be above or below the 1" feed to the flushometer? How does this work exactly? Won't it pressurize the water trying to come in to the system and cause the pressure to back off?


I really love the old Gerber Bowl and the idea of the flushometer system. Just had the toilet seat hardware re-chromed (!) I really want to keep it all together and get it working. Thanks for any help or information.
On this first, ever, post.

RW

[Jerome2877]

An expantion tank will not increase your pressure, they are designed to allow for pressure increase in a system. What kind of pipes are in your building? If galvanized they could be coroded and are resricting the flow. Check the stop valve, see if it can be opened more to increase the flow. It could be a problem with the diaphram inside the valve, try replacing it.

[jadnashua]

Once the tank gets filled with pressurized water, checking the air pressure will be the same as the water pressure. Follow the recommendation of the tank's manufacturer on setting the static air pressure (with no water pressure applied and the tank empty). It must be below the 'normal' water pressure to allow water to enter so there is some stored there, but how much would depend on the tank and is probably recommended at about 20-pounds less than the normal building water pressure. The tank won't 'pressurize' the line, but it will store water under pressure. Enough water will enter the tank to compress the trapped air and equilze the pressure on both sides of the bladder (air/water). It won't be 5-gallons, as some of that volume will be trapped air.

It sounds like your building has some galvanized iron water pipes that are now rusting internally, which is making them effectively smaller, and thus they can no longer provide the proper flow. This could be a big issue with the (probably present) sprinkler system, as there may not be enough volume to provide the fire protection you think you have. A Flushometer type toilet relies on a big volume of water in a short time (this is why it has that 1" or larger supply line going to it). WHen the pipes start to close down internally, it cannot flush properly. The tank should be close to the valve. If there is a section of bad piping, it may not help, since that could be the source of the restriction to flow. An alternative to all this would be to replace the toilet with a wall-hung with a tank. The tank could be external or internal to the wall depending on the model. Then, it would operate like a traditional gravity flush toilet, and as long as the tank filled before the next flush, should operate fine - there would then be no water volume issue.

If you are renting, this is an issue for the landlord and the building inspector. If this is a co-op or condo, it is an owner issue. In either case, a repipe (probably at a fairly high price) may be in your near future.

[shacko]

Depending on the toilet, some require 10-25 lbs pressure at the valve hook-up, less and they will not work right.
Sloan valves come with gpf (gallons per flush) ratings, if you install the wrong one you will have a problem with it working correctly

[Robert Walser]

Jerome, Jim and Shacko,

Thanks for the good information.

How best to determine the GPF which the bowl rated?
The toilet sits close about 4' to where the water riser enters my space twenty feet further down the line
I have a dial water-pressure gauge at a faucet and it reads 26 lbs So I should charge the tank to 6lbs?


"It sounds like your building has some galvanized iron water pipes that are now rusting internally, which is making them effectively smaller,
and thus they can no longer provide the proper flow. This could be a big issue with the (probably present) sprinkler system,
as there may not be enough volume to provide the fire protection you think you have."

Yikes! scary thought but probably true

[jadnashua]

26# may not even meet code and is probably too low for a flushometer valve to work. Adding a storage tank under those condtions won't help as, regardless of what size and it's position, it won't have more than 26# water pressure coming out of it. When there is no flow, the pressure should be the same everwhere in the system at the same elevation (it drops as you go higher). So, 26# as a static pressure is horrible. I like to see at least 40#, although some people run their well pump system at 40/20 (where it will drop to 20 before the pump turns on).

[Robert Walser]

Jim,
I can tell you 26 lbs is not luxurious amount. The shower is a bit lame, but works.
I will try to get a reading at "the source" where the water service enters our space, to see if it is any better closer to the toilet. Might be wish full thinking.
Yes, I was kind of afraid someone was going to say what you did. I am not about to argue, my dad was a defense industry engineer -- 35 Years at Raytheon in Massachusetts.
I can ask him just about anything and he will have an amazing answer. Quite a bit of knowledge in that brain of his.
What about adding an electric in line pump?
Or should I bite the bullet and convert to a tank-type system>?

[jadnashua]

I retired from Raytheon after 33-1/3 years.

If you have room for it, you could put in a storage tank and a pump. If the water doesn't come in fast enough, and you don't have enough stored in the tank, you might ruin the pump. A water pump typically relies on water for the bearings and seals...run it dry (try to push out more water than it can get in), and it won't work. Your supply line may support higher flow, and if it does, then you may not need a big storage tank (the storage tank size would determine how often and long the pump would need to run). This would be similar to a well system and the pump would turn on to raise it to the high limit, then shut off. When it dropped to the low-limit, it would turn back on again. You can probably search the 'This Olde House' site and view where they installed one in the last year or so. I don't remember the date they ran that show, but do remember them doing it.

I'd complain to the landlord (or bring it up to the owner's association), as it should be addressed for the whole building. I guess it depends on how tenuous your relationship with them is, whether to press the issue.

[Robert Walser]

Jim,

Will look for the old house episode, if anything it will be entertaining. I remember seeing a quite a few gravity-tank-type toilets in NYC aboutr 20 years ago. They have slowly diasapeared.
Sounds simmilar to what you are suggesting. I might just put a brand new tank-type toilet in and shelve this new Sloan valve.

My landlord is 50% absent, or he is 100% absent where general building maintenance is concerned and 100% present when rent is due.
I have a leak in the ceiling which has been my argument against a rent increase for the past 2 years. Hence the rent is cheaper than market rate, so it goes, same old story..
Building needs to be re-pointed as well. it will collapse in 15 yrs, hopefully I will be on vacation that week..

If you can suggest a tank-type toilet I am considering one at this point.


Oh yeah, my dad was with Raytheon as well, he worked on the Patriot program. When he arrived home from work I would ask him how it was and he would always answer: "Fun"

[jadnashua]

Is your toilet wall-hung, floor mounted with rear outlet, or does it use a conventional toilet flange? That makes a big difference in what you can use. in a rental, generally, it can get really messy if you replace anything.