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Thread: Water softener problem - advice?

  1. #1
    DIY Junior Member Mikky's Avatar
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    Default Water softener problem - advice?

    Hey folks,
    Been reading here for a bit but now I have a dilemma and need some advice.
    I use approx. 180 to 190gals a day and have a hardness of 8, no iron or otherwise. I purchased a FLeck 7000 with 1.25cf (40k?) Nelson Resin in February. About 2 months later I talked with a technician from Fleck and changed out the BLFC and injector assembly to that of a 24,000 grain system for salt savings and efficiency. I have set the unit to C 18000 @H 8 for 2250gals, .25gpm BLFC set at 16mins. all the rest are consistent with what I read here.
    I had override set at 11 days and only one time did the usage require regen the rest of the time it was override. About 6 weeks ago I set the override to 12days. The other night I noticed the gals down to 33 and it did regenerate on the days because I use no safety factor. However this time, the first time, I noticed that the slippery feel of soaps/detergents is not there. Usually the days following a regen I notice my face is as slippery as heck as I rinse in the shower, not this time. So I decided to manually regen the next night. My main test ( I know it is not the professional way) is to use a bar of Ivory soap in the garage sink, if the water is soft the slippery feel is never gone until I dry my hands. Not this time! even after 2 regens. I believe my resin is discharged and needs a jolt.

    Here's what is in my head: I use the formula 2.2 lbs of salt is dissolved into 1 gallon water...?? I rebrine with 4 gals - 8.8lbs. All the charts I had read state this should be enough salt for 24000. However tonight I looked at Nelson's site and they say for 1.0 CF resin 15lbs of salt is needed for 33,000 grains. Converting to my needs this would put me at 8lbs at 16500 and not 18000. Am I correct in my calculations here - I came up short? Also would I gain by purchasing 1.0 cf Purolite C100 and changing out the Nelson?(notice I went down from 1.25cf). My tank is 10X44.
    any advice is greatly appreciated!
    Mike
    Last edited by Terry; 10-28-2010 at 06:18 PM.

  2. #2
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Changing the BLFC and injector has nothing to do with any kind of efficiency and the injector is usually dictated by the size of the tank. the BLFC controls how much water flow into and out of the salt tank per minute.

    One gallon of refill water dissolves 3 lbs of salt (actually 2.7 lbs but call it 3).

    As we see, micro managing causes hard water leakage and in many instances what you think is saved (water and salt) is eventually used up plus additional water and salt to fully regenerate the resin back to max capacity.

    Now you must do 2 manual regenerations at the max of 15 lbs/cuft of resin, one after the other with no water usage during or between each regen so you get all your resin regenerated or you live with hard water getting through the resin bed. before you do them you should go back to the original BLFC and injector.

    Then click on the Sizing link in my signature and learn all about salt efficiency and reprogram your 7000 for 60 gals/person/day plus a 24 hr reserve unless the 7000 has variable reserve. And figure a max of 30K per cuft @ 15lbs/cuft.

    You don't need new or a different brand of resin, just learn to program correctly and for 7-9 days between regenerations based on the K of capacity needed for say 8 days with no reserve IF the 7000 has variable reserve, otherwise one day of reserve at 60gals/person.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  3. #3
    Previous Member Water Dude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    Changing the BLFC and injector has nothing to do with any kind of efficiency and the injector is usually dictated by the size of the tank. the BLFC controls how much water flow into and out of the salt tank per minute.
    The brine flow control only controls the flow into the brine tank and not out of the brine tank. The flow out of the brine tank is controlled by the injector.

  4. #4
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    I think if you look that up you may find that it depends on where the BLFC is.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  5. #5
    Previous Member Water Dude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    I think if you look that up you may find that it depends on where the BLFC is.
    Please explain. All the BLFC I know of are placed in a certain direction, bevel side toward water flow. If not, they do not control flow which means your statement was not correct.

  6. #6
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    ummmm you are partially correct but.... I didn't say direction, I said where it is.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  7. #7
    Previous Member Water Dude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    ummmm you are partially correct but.... I didn't say direction, I said where it is.
    You still have not explained. And you said, "BLFC controls how much water flow into and out of the salt tank per minute". Please explain how the BLFC controls flow out of the brine tank.

  8. #8
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    You're right about direction and yet water from the salt tank to the control valve has to flow backwards through the RFC (refill control) as Clack calls it.

    Page 15. http://www.clackcorp.com/valve/Manua...ice_Manual.pdf

    IIRC the Fleck 5600 BLFC button is in the brass brine line fitting on the control valve body and brine flows backwards through it.

    So since the button controls flow into the salt tank, why do you think it doesn't control the flow out of the salt tank?
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

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    Previous Member Water Dude's Avatar
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    There are different sizes of BLFC.... .25, .5 and 1.0. Now if a unit had a .5 (common size) with 3 gallons of water in the brine tank, the brine would be drawn in 6 minutes if the BLFC controlled flow out of the brine tank. We all know the brine draw time is about 20 minutes. It is the venturi that controls the rate of flow out of the brine tank. On Fleck and Eco control valves, and most likely others, the BLFC "floats" in it's holder. When water flow into the brine tank, the BLFC is pushed against the housing and seals so the water is directed through the center controlling the flow. But during a draw cycle, the BLFC "floats" so the brine can pass around it.

  10. #10
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    The optimal length of brine draw in residential softeners is 10-20 minutes max.

    As to "floating" BLFC buttons, I know the Fleck 5600 and Clack WS-x controls do not have a floating BLFC (RFC in Clack).

    I've given you a link to show you where Clack's RFC button in the brine line elbow on the control valve does not float, show me a Fleck floating BLFC button. Autotrol has never had a button and I can't recall but I believe that Erie doesn't either. So show me one.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  11. #11
    Previous Member Water Dude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    The optimal length of brine draw in residential softeners is 10-20 minutes max.

    As to "floating" BLFC buttons, I know the Fleck 5600 and Clack WS-x controls do not have a floating BLFC (RFC in Clack).

    I've given you a link to show you where Clack's RFC button in the brine line elbow on the control valve does not float, show me a Fleck floating BLFC button. Autotrol has never had a button and I can't recall but I believe that Erie doesn't either. So show me one.
    Maybe floating was not the right word, but the BLFC is not in a fix postion. It will move within it's holder. The Autotrol has a ball which controls the flow. Once pressure is applied (brine fill), the ball seats and allows only X amount through the port. Again, in a draw cycle, the ball moves so the brine can flow around it which does not control flow. So you should now agree that your orginal statement that the BLFC does not control flow out of the brine tank. Agreed?

  12. #12
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Water Dude View Post
    Maybe floating was not the right word, but the BLFC is not in a fix postion. It will move within it's holder. The Autotrol has a ball which controls the flow. Once pressure is applied (brine fill), the ball seats and allows only X amount through the port. Again, in a draw cycle, the ball moves so the brine can flow around it which does not control flow. So you should now agree that your orginal statement that the BLFC does not control flow out of the brine tank. Agreed?
    Dude, bad example proving my statement true, and here's why...

    There are 3 balls in an Autotrol (255) control valve. 1 for the drain line, air check and adjustable salt dose setting part. If you read the manual you will find that the DLFC ball plays a part in controlling the Brine Draw flow and the real control is the adjustable salt dose setting part not the ball (items # 7 [ball] and 8 [salt dose adjustable part] on pg 14 of the manual below); not just the injector as you previously claimed and are now claiming the ball does it in an Autotrol.

    From the Autotrol 255 440 timer service manual at:
    http://www.watervalue.com/documentation.html

    **************
    The salt dial controls the amount of brine used
    during regeneration. (e.g. when set at 15 lbs. [6.8 kg]
    The amount of brine the conditioner will use for each
    regeneration will contain 15 lbs. [6.8 kg] of salt, etc.).
    **************
    That actually means an adjustable volume of refill water is set and added to the salt tank in refill and doesn't mention that in brine draw air check ball shuts off flow but...

    Anyway, I take it you can't produce any link to a "floating" Fleck, Clack or Erie BLFC button to prove your "floating" claim...

    And other than leaving a few thousands or a 1/16th of an inch to allow installation/removal of a BLFC button, there isn't any "floating" going on so the brine water must flow through and/or around the BLFC; which controls the flow as I think
    i said and you disagreed with.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

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    Previous Member Water Dude's Avatar
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    As I stated "floating" may not have beed the proper word. The BLFC is not, repeat not in a fixed postion so it can move during the brine draw, which will allow the brine water to go around the BLFC so it does not control the flow out of the brine as you stated. The water flow during a refill will force the BLFC against the housing preventing water flow around it, so you have a "flow control". Again, the flow control for the brine draw is the venturi period. If you want to see for yourself, place a bigger size venturi in any softener but leave the same BLFC or DLFC and time the draw. It will draw faster because of the venturi and not the BLFC. Now tell me this is not correct.

  14. #14
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Water Dude View Post
    As I stated "floating" may not have beed the proper word. The BLFC is not, repeat not in a fixed postion so it can move during the brine draw, which will allow the brine water to go around the BLFC so it does not control the flow out of the brine as you stated. The water flow during a refill will force the BLFC against the housing preventing water flow around it, so you have a "flow control". Again, the flow control for the brine draw is the venturi period. If you want to see for yourself, place a bigger size venturi in any softener but leave the same BLFC or DLFC and time the draw. It will draw faster because of the venturi and not the BLFC. Now tell me this is not correct.
    Since the brine line flow control button is in the flow and in your opinion it moves some during brine draw and some of the water goes around it in the 1/16" space, the rest goes through the hole in the BLFC as you say.

    So in my opinion, there would be a reduction of flow as compared to IF there was no BLFC button in the line. Hence the BLFC controls the brine draw flow in my opinion because it is there; in the way, reducing flow. BTW, when the button is pushed back, what prevents it from sealing off flow since there is a hole in it?

    Now Skip/biermeck you should not be able to still disagree with that.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

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    Previous Member Water Dude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    Since the brine line flow control button is in the flow and in your opinion it moves some during brine draw and some of the water goes around it in the 1/16" space, the rest goes through the hole in the BLFC as you say.

    So in my opinion, there would be a reduction of flow as compared to IF there was no BLFC button in the line. Hence the BLFC controls the brine draw flow in my opinion because it is there; in the way, reducing flow. BTW, when the button is pushed back, what prevents it from sealing off flow since there is a hole in it?

    Now Skip/biermeck you should not be able to still disagree with that.
    So in other words, if the BLFC is changed (bigger or smaller), the rate of brine draw will be changed? Is that what you are saying?

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