Just need to put the pressure relief and filter between the CSV and the rest of the manifold.
My well (380') delivers crystal clear water with no odor. It has also passed several tests by a certified EPA lab for contaminants, bacteria etc. (most recently about 12 months ago). That said... I do have sediment... but it is more of a pain than a problem.
I have two 10 inch filters in parallel "before" the pressure switch and tank assembly. (gasp) In reading thru these threads some people advise against this practice because of the potential of pump damage. My current setup is: pump>pressure relief valve>whole house filter>pressure switch>pressure tank>hose bib> house. By placing the filter first in-line it is also protecting all the well system components (valves, tank, switches) The idea of placing the pressure relief valve ahead of the filter it to prevent any pump or plumbing damage should the filter plug.
Anyway, my sediment is so large (or heavy) that it typically migrates near the bottom half of the filter so the filter never clogs nor does it ever effect our water pressure. I got lazy once and left the filter installed for 18 months with no problem (never clogged.) The sediment has a gritty texture that feels like sand but is mostly black with particles of gold glitter (maybe mica?) Even without any filters installed (which I do sometimes) the screens in our faucets alone prevent the grit from getting past so we don't see any suspending particles in the drinking glass. (even letting a glass full sit overnight) no sediment. The pain is it eventually plugs the screens in my faucets and the holes in my shower heads and accumulates in the toilet tank.
Removing the shower head and screens is no problem and I can easily flush away the particles.... which leads to my question.
Because the sediment is so large and heavy I was thinking I could benefit from installing a spin-down filter, like a Rusco with a stainless or polyester screen... followed by a paper filter -with a pressure relief valve- after the pump but "ahead" of all the other equipment. Besides Rusco, are there other or better suppliers of Spin-down filters?
The caveat is... (except for the pump) I'm getting ready to replace the entire system to install a pside-kick
The instructions for the CSV state it should be the first device in line after the pump. My system has been perfect for the last 10 years (until the bladder in my pressure tank failed). Because my filter set up has worked so well... I was hoping I could leave the filter and pressure relief valve in the system ahead of the pside-kick as well as idding a spin-down filter.
Any comments or suggestions?
Just need to put the pressure relief and filter between the CSV and the rest of the manifold.
One potential issue is can the sediment filter handle the head pressure when the pump/CSV is operating at a near-deadhead condition, like when the tank is in refill mode? The American Granby filter I have installed is rated for a max pressure of 150 psi. Besides the specs on the filter you need to look at the pump curve and pumping conditions (pumping water level, friction loss, etc) to confirm that.
There may also be operational issues with the CSV if the filter plugs up, but others on this forum would know far more about that than I.
I guess my question was, will I be okay installing a spindown and sediment filter before the CSV as long as I install a relief valve ahead of the filters? Like this:
pump> relief valve> spin-down/sediment filter> CSV> psidekick assembly> house
(The idea being, this setup would serve to protect the CSV and the pside-kick assembly from the sand and gravel.) Now that I have the pside-kick and have had a chance to study it I believe it's an awesome design and will be the answer to my prayers for a simplistic - low maintence setup! . I just want to protect it from the grit that has played havoc on my previous well system hardware.
Last edited by Elton Noway; 10-17-2010 at 07:43 AM.
In regards to the CSV, its function is to maintain a constant pressure in the system based on demand. If a filter plugged up and was located in the system with a relief valve "before" the CSV, the pressure releif valve would open. If this situation occured the CSV, sensing demand, would simply stay open and allow the pump to keep pumping and the water would simply exit via the relief valve.
I'm really leaning on placing the filters and check valve "before" the CSV to help protect it. The CSV (at $140 each) is not something I want the sand and gravel to tear up (or cause it to clog or jam) Every valve I've every installed (from gate, to ball and/or poppit) has eventually leaked, been damaged or malfunctioned thru the years due to the grit and gravel.
Regarding overpressuring the filter, the Lakos Sandmaster filters are designed for installation between the pump and pressure tank. They use a metal pressure cylinder instead of the clear acrylic bowl that many filters use. With that design the pressure rating on the Lakos is likely greater than the Rusco, but I didn't confirm that.
I did read somewhere that sediment can foul up a CSV ... valveman perhaps you can comment on that. I may have the same issue on my well when I install the CSV.
My biggest stumbling block with the Lakos is the price! For comparable units I'm looking at its $60-$75 for a Rusco versus $450 for a Lasko. (Thats a lot to bite off )
Also interesting... in searching Rusko for the rated psi I discovered they make two versions of the sediment filter. They both look very similar with drain valve for draing the sediment. While similar in appearance one is more for sediment.
Last edited by Elton Noway; 10-17-2010 at 12:26 PM.
First thing to consider is that your pump is the most expensive part of the system. The pump also spins at 3450 RPM and has very close tolerances. Sand and grit will quickly destroy a pump and motor. If at all possible, considering the size of the well casing, the best place for a sand separator is before the pump. A long flow inducer sleeve works good if the grit is heavy. The Lakos Sub-K http://www.lakos.com/products/Sub-K.html can also be installed on the pump itself. It flushes out the bottom and will eventually fill the bottom of the well with sand, but the pump and everything else is protected from sand.
If the casing is not large enough or there is no extra hole below the pump for sand to fall into, then you cannot protect the pump from sand, you just need to filter it out before use. This Lakos separator is the one I am most familiar with and is rated up to 150 PSI.
Now as long as your pump cannot deadhead over 150 PSI, you can put this type filter or the spin down filter before the CSV. This will protect the CSV and everything except the pump from sand damage. You cannot put a pressure relief valve before the CSV, or the CSV will not function properly.
If your pump can build more than 150 PSI, then you must put the filter after the CSV. Now the CSV will see the sand and grit, but that particular valve is designed to handle some grit or sand. The CSV is designed to leak 1 GPM when in the closed position, so sand damage that causes a ball valve to leak is not a problem for the CSV. Sand damage will eventually cut the guts out of a CSV the same as it doe the pump. However there are no screens or holes to clog in the CSV. The only movement in a CSV is the shaft moving up and down slowly about ¼ of an inch. So sand damage to the CSV is no where near as much problem as it is for the pump. If your pump will last 5 years pumping that much sand, then the CSV should last 10 years.
I should also say that filtering sand before a pressure switch doesn’t cause a problem like filtering slimy stuff. Sand will usually not stop the flow completely. There will be enough water flowing through a filter packed with sand to keep the pump cool. As long as 1 GPM is still getting through the filter, the pump/motor will not be destroyed from a lack of flow.
The stuff in the picture doesn't look like sand to me. Do you have hard water? Do you have a water softener?
With heavy sediment I don't think you need to protect a switch gauge etc.. And I suggest you don't filter before the pressure switch or tank. Which will be the way it is if you go the p-side kick. The regular type pressure tank doesn't need to be protected from sand or heavy sediment.
Perception is 3/4 of reality
This "grit" gets into everything, faucet aerators, toilet tanks, water heater etc. I installed a Home Depot brand whole house water filter about 15 years ago. Using simple pleated paper cartridges does the trick and keeps out the black grit... The filters last close to a year with no noticeable pressure drop since most of the junk settles to the bottom of the filter housing. BUT... the grit gets into bypass valves used to change the filter. After 3 or 4 filter changes the valves leak so bad they no longer function properly. As a result I have to change out the entire filter housing.
I want to install "something" that will eliminate or reduce the grit that makes its way into my house , as well as protect the CSV from premature wear "and" possibly having the heavy sediment reducing the total storage volume of the pside-kick pressure tank as this junk settles in.
Lakos ILB-0037 seemed like the ideal solution! I was really excited when I discovered it (even though the cost is outside my retiree budget). The 3-6gpm model is listed at $650 and the 4-10gpm model is listed at $420. To reduce the expense I decided to go with the Sandmaster H20-05 (Carbon Steel) It was the least expensive model that was close to what I needed based on my specs.
I envisioned a Lakos separator in conjunction with the CSV pside-kick to be the perfect solution. It would offer me "years" of maintenance free service. But alas... Lakos said "No" (I decided if I was going to spend that kind of money I had to be sure it would function properly with the CSV)... so I sent Lakos an email that read as follows:
Hello, I'm considering a SandMaster for a residential application. Single family use only, no irrigation of any kind. I have a low flow private well that has a flow rate of about 5gal per min at best. I've also performed the 3 minute test... all particles in my water (grit and sand) settle within 3 min or less.
My concern is... I currently have a "Cycle Stop Valve" (Model CSV1W) installed.
NET: If I install a SandMaster, the next device inline (downstream) of the SandMaster will be the CSV. I know the proper operation of the SandMaster is highly dependent on flow rate. My concern is the CSV might prevent the SandMaster from performing its function. As you might imagine, I don't want to spend this kind of money if the SandMaster won't work in my particular application.
Are you familiar with the CSV and can you tell me if it will or will not affect the performance of the SandMaster?
Lakos replied as follows:
After talking with our Application Engineer, unfortunately we will not be able to assist you with your application. The LAKOS separator as you thought, would not work in your application. Thank you for contacting us.
LAKOS Customer Care
Not what I wanted to hear, at worse case I was at least hoping they would try to sell me on the ILB model that handles the lower flow rate.
Valveman... Based on your knowledge of both the CSV and the Lasko separators... and your belief they should be able to "play together", I can't help but wonder if the engineer Cheri talked to fully understand my scenario. I would really love to install a Laski unit but I can't afford to take the chance should their engineer be right. (hmmm... wonder if they have any test/loaner models.) It would be great to test drive it first. Knowing it worked ahead of time would make the decision to purchase a whole lot painful. I'm pretty disappointed as I thought it would be the perfect marriage / solution.
Ironically... I found another forum post from three years ago where someone was asking a similar question, concerned whether or not the SandMaster separator would function properly with the CSV.
"As the CSV maintains the pressure in a system it can vary the output depending on the demand... from as little as 1 gallon per minute up to the amount the pump can produce. Worried that the CSV would inhibit the proper operation of the Lakos centrifugal separator which requires a "minimum" of 5 GPM"(in their residential model)
Unfortunately the thread died with no follow up on whether or not he ever installed the separator. So I'm back to square one.
>Click Here< to see a good video showing a see-through working model showing how the Lakos system works. (the actual demo starts at 26 seconds into the video if you want to skip ahead)
Last edited by Elton Noway; 10-18-2010 at 10:30 PM.
That looks like a lot of sediment. I don’t know how your pump is lasting that long or why the filters don’t fill up everyday. The best solution would be to have a well drilled that doesn’t make sediment. If I had drilled that well recently, I would be over there drilling you another for free.
Anyway, I have only used Lakos separators about a thousand times with CSV’s. They have always worked great. Even though the flow rate needed to make them function is 4 to 10 GPM, they still work fine with a CSV. When you are pumping less than 4 GPM, the velocity in the drop pipe is not fast enough to even bring sand to the surface. When your flow rate increases above 4 GPM, the sediment in the drop pipe then comes to the surface and the Lakos separates it out.
Although the spin down filter will work all the way down to 1 GPM, so as long as it doesn’t fill up with sediment too fast, it would work fine also. I have also used the CSV with these successfully many times.
Old threads usually die when the person gets their problems solved. I wish people would come back and tell us how it worked. But if water is coming out of their faucets OK, they rarely come back to the forum.
Its all an exercise in futility until you hold your pump on and see at what pressure it stops moving water. It might be 80 psi.
Even at 110 psi you are probably safe. After grinding all tht sand, your pump might not do 65 psi.
In which case put a few cheap cartridge filters in and forget about any 400$ device. Along with that 20$ sand seperator.
I have a bunch of filters before my pressure switch, they have their own PRV, and they are in the "drain down" end of a standard tank set-up. Therefore during non pumping times, they see NO pressure at all.
You can always sell the side kick and replace that bladder tank if you cannot resolve the pressure and wear issues.