pside-kick system - Can I add a Second Pressure Tank?

The bladder my 10 year old 125Gal Flotec let go (spraying water from the valve when I attempted to check the air pressure). When I purchased it 10 years ago, from one of those big name home improvement stores, I wasn't able to find much information on the net. Now that I know better and I won't be buying another one.

Anyway, after much research it seems the pside-kick will be a near perfect solution. I say near perfect because it's just my wife and I, with normal water usage, (i.e. showers, toilet, laundry, dishwasher) but no irrigation system of any kind. I only mentioned this because (like others) I'm concerned about the pump kicking in with every gallon of water usage. I know the argument is the elimination of frequent cycles during long use times (showers and laundry) will offset the extra cycles toilet flushes, brushing teeth or shaving etc., but I can't help but think there will be more of these short periods of water usage cycles. Too many in fact, to be offset by the cycles saved during long water use periods. With that thought in mind... I was originally planning on installing a CSV1Z with a Flexcon WWT-20... but... I just retired. Although retired I'm in great shape and can still easily wrestle the old 125Gal out and a new 20gal tank in under the house. My concern is in the future... (say 20 years from now) of having to change out the 20 gallon tank. While swapping out a 20Gal might be near impossible, I'm thinking I should be able to easily replace the little 4 gal on the pside-kick. For this reason I hoping I can get by with just the pside-kick.

Which leads me to the original subject of this thread. If I install the pside-kick... then after a month or so I decide I would be better off with a 20 gal tank... can I simply install the 20Gal tank downstream of the CSV and the pside-kicks 4gal tank?

In theory I'm thinking the CSV won't care there if there is more than one tank... and it will simply allow the pressure to rise in both tanks until the pressure switch shuts off the pump. NET: Can I use a second tank in conjunction with the pside-kick?

Yes, but the closer the better. Can't give you an exact distance, never saw a calculation for it.

The CSV makes the pump run continuously the entire time the shower is running or the entire time the washing machine is filling. Without a CSV the pump could cycle several times during a shower or washing machine fill. The 1 gallon draw down in the 4.4 gallon tank will keep the pump from starting when the ice maker fills or for rinsing a toothbrush. Second or third toilet flushes don’t cause extra cycling because the pump is already running from the first flush. So the question is really how many times a day do you start flushing a toilet? Even twenty or thirty flushes a day don’t add up to much cycling. So the 4.4 gallon tank is really all you need.

You can always add another tank to the system if you like. And unlike systems that do not have a CSV, you can install the second tank anywhere. Without a CSV it is not recommended to install tanks in different locations. They will fill at different rates and times because of the friction loss between the two tanks, which is not a good thing. However, a CSV will fill the pressure tank(s) at only 1 GPM. At 1 GPM fill rate there is no friction loss in the system, so multiple tanks will fill at exactly the same rate, no matter how far apart they are.

I don’t think you will ever need or want the extra tank but, with the CSV, you can install another tank anywhere and anytime you like.

Valveman... thanks for the detailed response. In regards to second or third toilet flushes... I've only heard of that occurring in home with some of the earlier model low flush toilets that had problems with solid waste and needed to be flushed two or three times clear all the solid waste. My home is 30 years old and still has the old fashion 5 gallon per flush model. Everything flushes fine in just one flush... but my 5 gallon flushes will exceed the drawdown of the psidekick, hence the pump will cycle with every flush. Maybe my concern is unjustified because I never bother to count how many time a day we flush versus the number of cycles my pump goes through during a shower or on laundry day. (I only wish I had observed the system when it was working and knew how many times the pump was kicking in during a normal shower.)

My well has a submerged pump (380 feet) and the pressure tank and related plumbing are under the house. We never have any indication when the pump is running. (no light flicker, no pressure noises etc.) The only way I know when the pump is running is if I'm under the house an hear the contacts close on the pressure switch, then watch the pressure gauge climbing. Anyway, after treading many of these threads I'm thinking my pump hasn't been running long enough once it turns on. I have my pressure switch set at 40/60 but if I had to guess, my recollection is the pump, when it kicked in, never ran for more than a minute (if that). Since the bladder lasted ten years I'm not sure if it failed because it was a Flotec or because I was cycling to much.

The problem is... (in my mind anyway) I was thinking the less the pump runs, the longer it will lasts (less wear and tear) but... in reading thru these threads it sounds like I need to rethink my logic... i.e., that a pump motor is better off running for long periods (say one hour or more), than cycling on and off every 10 minutes to refill a pressure tank. In which case the psidekick is looking like the ideal solution.

With 5 gallon flushers the pump will still cycle on for every flush, even with a 20 gallon size pressure tank. 20 gal tank equals 5 gallons of draw down. A 44 gallon tank would only let you flush twice before the pump started. Like I said, you can always add an additional tank later. I would just set up with the Pside-Kick and see how you like it.
Thanks
Cary

valveman said:

With 5 gallon flushers the pump will still cycle on for every flush, even with a 20 gallon size pressure tank. 20 gal tank equals 5 gallons of draw down. A 44 gallon tank would only let you flush twice before the pump started. Like I said, you can always add an additional tank later. I would just set up with the Pside-Kick and see how you like it.
Thanks
Cary

Click to expand...

Okay... I'm convinced... Just ordered the pside-kick! With delivery times and scheduling my time, it will probably be a week before I get a chance to do the installation (unless the bladder collapses down onto the discharge hole of the tank...Yikes) If that happens I'll have to move up the installation. Once I get it installed I'll check back in. Thanks for all the advice.

Elton Noway said:

My well has a submerged pump (380 feet)

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You use a 3 hp pump?

I hope this helps
draw down volume = GAL in gallons
usage in GPM, both continuous and intermittent = GPM
time of usage in minutes = MIN

GAL = GPM x MIN
GPM = GAL/MIN
MIN = GAL/GPM

If I understand this system correctly, if you use 100 gals/day and your pump delivers a constant 12 GPM then it will have to run, on average, 100/12 = 8.3 minutes per day to total that 100 gals, however that 8.3 minutes is divided up.

Thatguy said:

You use a 3 hp pump?

[snip]

If I understand this system correctly, if you use 100 gals/day and your pump delivers a constant 12 GPM then it will have to run, on average, 100/12 = 8.3 minutes per day to total that 100 gals, however that 8.3 minutes is divided up.

Click to expand...

errrr...No. Based on your input... I'm a little concerned. I ordered the pside-kick ... in fact I received it last Friday. Was planning on putting it in this week. Not sure if I screwed up or not.

As stated earlier my pump sits at 380 feet, "however" I personally installed the pump about 10 years. It's only a 2 Wire 3/4HP pump rated at 10GPM. Since reading your reply, all the charts I've referred to shows a 1HP pump being pretty worthless past 200 feet.

I replaced the pump when the original pump failed at 11 years old. I never had a well before and knew nothing about them. The pump I pulled out was only a 2 wire 1/2HP so I figured I would be ahead of the game by installing a 2Wire 3/4HP. I placed it myself (using all new pipe) back to the original depth of 384ft. While I know the depth of the pump, I don't know the actual water level. Based on the charts I've seen neither the original pump or the one I installed should be producing any pressure let alone deliver water. How is this possible?

NOTE: I've never had any trouble with my system set at 30-50PSI. Pressure has always been more than satisfactory for our needs.

I'm now starting to think the reason my system had a 175GAL pre-charged water tank was not to increase the draw down or even reduce pump cycling ... but rather to provide some assemblance of pressure while the pump struggled to keep up with the demand?

Worried now that the pside-kick may not work for my application.

Elton Noway said:

Worried now that the pside-kick may not work for my application.

Click to expand...

Others can advise you on this.



I've seen an old patent, 4142411, for monitoring well drawdown using a single pressure gauge in the well, and they talked about how this single measurement is useful for determining well production characteristics.

In a way it seems like a well acts as another pressure tank, with the capability of delivering a small GPM continuously or a large GPM for a short while.

To properly diagnose well system-level problems I'd think you'd need pressure and flow rate at several different points, just like monitoring voltage (pressure) and current (flow) in an electrical circuit. Then the well and the tank are the analogy of capacitors, and what drives the whole hydraulic circuit is groundwater.

The fix then follows from the diagnosis.

The fact that a ½ HP, 10 GPM pump would even build 50 PSI tells me that your water level is less than 100’. Being that a ¾ HP, 10 GPM pump will still produce 60 PSI from about 190’ shows you have lots of water stored in the well. Figuring 1.5 gallons per foot, you have at least 135 gallons stored above the maximum depth that your pump can produce from. That’s about the same amount of storage as five of the 119 gallon bladder tanks. No matter the depth of pump setting, a pump only lifts from the actual water level. As the title of this thread, you can always add an additional tank latter, but I don’t think you will ever want to. Just let us know how it works.

Thatguy said:

In a way it seems like a well acts as another pressure tank, with the capability of delivering a small GPM continuously or a large GPM for a short while.

To properly diagnose well system-level problems I'd think you'd need pressure and flow rate at several different points, just like monitoring voltage (pressure) and current (flow) in an electrical circuit. Then the well and the tank are the analogy of capacitors, and what drives the whole hydraulic circuit is groundwater.

The fix then follows from the diagnosis.

Click to expand...

Hmmm… makes sense, but would involve a lot more research than I’m willing to put into it at this time. Had I known this conversation would take place back then when I replaced the pump I would have recorded more characteristics of the well. I know when I was pulling out the old pump out “by hand” (with no winch of any kind) I was able to lift it pretty easily (at first.) I was thinking “Hey, this will be easier than I thought”, then all of a sudden it felt like I was trying to lift an elephant. It only took a nano second for me to realize the pump motor must have broken the surface of the water and I was now lifting the weight of the pump, all the remaining pipe and any water trapped in the pipe. I only wish I would have thought to record the depth to the surface water. Oh well… considering the pump is now 10 years old and it was recently cycling on and off every 10 seconds for about 2 weeks until I realized the bladder in my pressure tank broke... I imagine I’ll be replacing it soon. Next time I’ll also record water depth!

valveman said:

The fact that a ½ HP, 10 GPM pump would even build 50 PSI tells me that your water level is less than 100’. Being that a ¾ HP, 10 GPM pump will still produce 60 PSI from about 190’ shows you have lots of water stored in the well. Figuring 1.5 gallons per foot, you have at least 135 gallons stored above the maximum depth that your pump can produce from. That’s about the same amount of storage as five of the 119 gallon bladder tanks. No matter the depth of pump setting, a pump only lifts from the actual water level. As the title of this thread, you can always add an additional tank latter, but I don’t think you will ever want to. Just let us know how it works.

Click to expand...

Whew... ! Your reply (which makes perfect sense) makes me feel a lot better. Other than a shower which is probably the most demand we ever put on our well from month to month... I also own a pressure washer (2,600 psi /2.3 gallons per minute). At most, I only drag it out once a year but make good use of it when I do. Last summer I used it to clean my driveway and sidewalk, and other than stopping it to add fuel, I had it running non-stop for a little over 5 hours and never pumped the well dry. Even during periods of drought we've never run out of water.

I'll stay on course and will be installing the pside-kick "as designed", with no additional tank so I can follow-up with my findings. I'd like to stay away from adding a second tank if at all possible as I want to simplify both the installation and number of components so any future maintenance will be easier. Will check back in when completed.

If the pump was set at 2000 feet, and water stands at 75 feet, your calcs come from 75 feet. That is why even a 1/2 hp pump worked for you. Dont overthink it, the 3/4 hp is fine if it makes 60 psi in reasonable time with no outflow.

Next time you pull the pump note the water level.

Pressure washers use little water but lots of energy.

This brings up something else.
If a well is said to be 200' deep, is this the depth to the water, to the pump or to the bottom of the hole?
If water is struck at 200' how much deeper do they put the pump? How much deeper do they drill the hole?

It all depends on the area. Some places you hit water at 200', and it will come up to 10', and you can set the pump at 20'. Other places you hit water at 200', and you have to drill to 250' and set the pump at 245'. Only a local driller will know for sure. And he spent a life time doing things the hard way to figure this out. So he would be crazy to tell all his secrets.

OK, so let's say the pump is 20' below the water surface in a 6" dia. borehole. This is 29 gallons.
If the aquifer supplies 5 GPM and the OP takes out 12 GPM, then in 29/(12-5) = 4 minutes the well will be empty as far as the pump is concerned.

I think.

I'm assuming if you take out zero to 5 GPM the water level doesn't move.