Iron Filter Spews Iron after Outdoor Sprinklers are ran

[Gary Slusser]

I will bypass BOTH the iron filter and water softner in the morning and see what I have coming through the house when I get back home. I will try the sprinklers friday or this weekend; it's raining tonight and tomorrow. I want to wait and do this test when all my neighbors are running theirs, so we're all drawing on community feed around the same time. I see what you're saying that we could be stirring up any iron sitting in the pipes. This is a good test.

- I didn't mean to convey that I had water flowing out of my house, but rather maybe a little movement going and stirring things up in the softner and filter. Kinda the same reason you need a backflow preventer on an outside sprinkler system to isolate it? Yeah, I agree with you that you can't have constant flow backwards on a closed system.

Movement/flow.... how can there be any, what in the house is increasing pressure higher than going to the sprinklers? The answer is the water heater when it comes on to raise the temp of the water in the tank. That doesn't happen unless you have a tank type heater, and then it is a small volume of water that would flow, and not enough to cause the house to have rusty water everywhere. UNLESS you had a leak allowing dirty city water to be drawn into the plumbing, through the filter and softener.

If the water sitting in the plumbing from when you shut off the water in the morning turns rusty, that says your filter and softener are not removing all the ferrous iron in the water and it is converting to ferric iron (rust) in the water during the day causing orange/brownish water by the time you get home.

Two ppm of iron is very difficult to live with. And IMO your filter and softener look small and will be too small for say more than 2 people in the house. And that assumes no more flow than 9 gpm. And that may be too high for the softener.

A check valve is not to protect your house, it is used to protect the city water system from water from your house, an outside faucet etc. backflowing into the city water to contaminate it as it goes past your house on to other customers. Same for the vacuum breaker on outside faucets, while that 'protects' you too. How the hell we survived with indoor plumbing for a 100 years without those things is beyond me. A pressure regulator valve protects you from excessive pressure in the city system until they break.

You should test for iron and maybe tannin in the raw water and in a sample after the iron filter and then the softener. That will tell you what the equipment is doing and how good or not.

[Gary Slusser]

depends on the code, but it's always a good idea to have a backflow device in the line

Maybe you should caution him about installing one without adding an expansion tank if he doesn't have one, for a tank type water heater.

It would be the right thing to do before he ends up with something like his softener and filter tanks bursting and flooding the house for a few hours.

But tell us how adding a check valve is going to stop his rusty water problem, IYO, what is causing the rusty water?

[Wally Hays]

There is a backflow situation occuring when the sprinkler system runs. As for the expansion tank, we have already addressed the issue however I'll do it again. If he notices the relief valve on the water heater dripping then a tank will be in order but I would try it without first.

[big dripper]

My guess might be that the iron filter had SO MUCH precipitated iron it (valve, tubing, tank, etc., that the new media is flushing it out. If that is so, then eventually it will decrease and become insignificant. In the meanwhile, it is being sent to the softener, where it may cause problems there and after. Also, (did we determine what media was placed in there?) as a single tank backwashig filter, it cleans itself with the same water it is designed to treat. This can sometimes build up in the tank and get released early in the succeeding servie run. Knowing the amount of dissolved oxygen in the source water would help. I would keep the mid-filter there until this is solved.

[Wally Hays]

Indeed however did we survive without back flow prevention. The answer is that quite a few didn't and still don't.

http://media.wattswater.com/F-sbn.pdf
http://www.watts.com/pages/learnAbou...asp?catId=1160

Not a subject to take lightly or offer an uneducated and unsupportable opinion on.

[Gary Slusser]

There is a backflow situation occuring when the sprinkler system runs. As for the expansion tank, we have already addressed the issue however I'll do it again. If he notices the relief valve on the water heater dripping then a tank will be in order but I would try it without first.

Oh, so you think he has an air leak in the house too and it allows air into the plumbing so water can move out of the house to the sprinklers. I wouldn't bet on that but for water to leave the house there would have to be an air leak.

Anyway, how does so much rusty water that he has it at all faucets then get back into the house and through the filter, the sediment filter and the softener.

In your other reply you say that after he installs teh check valve you think will cure his rusty water problem, he should watch his T/P valve on the water heater to see if it leaks, and if it does, then add an expansion tank... I know that when a T/P starts leaking, they rarely stop leaking. That's going to cost him to replace the T/P valve after just installing the expansion tank after just installing the check valve. To then find out he didn't solve the rusty water problem because the check valve didn't solve the problem.

And I see that big drip is going without your check valve too. He thinks the cause is leftover rust in the control valve, tank and "tubing". Now if you don't agree that there would be enough to cause rusty water all over the house for IIRC 3+ days, I'm with ya. I guess he missed the part that the media is Birm and that when the water is rusty and run some it goes clear. And that after backwashing it is clear until the sprinklers run the next time.

[nukeman]

You could pull a small amount of water from the house when the pressure drops at the tee, but it really would be small. Say the lines are all at 50 psi, the sprinklers come on and now the pressure at the tee drops to say 40. Since there is a dp, flow will go in that direction. However, unless a facuet was open or there was a hole in the system, just losing a little bit of liquid would drop that house pressure to 40 psi and the flow would stop.

What Wally may be talking about (and what my concern would also be) is backflow between the sprinklers and the house/drinking water. There should be some backflow protection outside on the sprinklers, but you should verify. It does look like iron, but it would be worth checking. Without the proper backflow preventers, you could draw water from the irrigation system filled with dirt and whatever else.

[Wally Hays]

If a T&P valve leaks for whatever reason and will not stop leaking, after the temperature and or pressure are relieved, it is bad and needs replacing. But you can go on and argue that too if you feel the need. LOL

[Gary Slusser]

However, unless a facuet was open or there was a hole in the system, just losing a little bit of liquid would drop that house pressure to 40 psi and the flow would stop.

That's what I've been saying but why would the house lose 10 psi unless the sprinkers drew it down due to them being on?

What Wally may be talking about...

Wally is saying the lack of a check valve allows backflow and that is the cause of the rusty water. And you are saying there would be very little backflow ONLY IF there was an open faucet etc., which is what I have been saying, and we haven't heard of any open faucets or any leaks.

[branjo101]

Hello All,

Here's what I found out:

1. I ran the sprinklers while I was away for the day. The Iron Filter and Softner were in bypass.

2. Came home and noticed a little bit of iron in the particulate filter between the iron filter and softner. No water house water was used during the day, so that was kind of puzzeling.

3. Went to the outside spigot (fed directly from city supply)

4. Ran for about a minute and then the water turned really bad (loaded w/ iron like picture). There was NO iron filter and softner in the loop.

5. The water supply to the house seemed to be normal after about 40-50 gallons went through.

6. Put the iron filter and softner back inline and house water was crystal clear.

I ended up calling the city and they are going to send someone out to blow out the incoming feeder line to the house. I don't don't know if this will work; I'm pretty skeptical. Anyway, that is where I am today. So, it sounds like the sprinklers are drawing in or loosening up iron that is sitting in the line. If blowing out the feeder line does not work, I'm trying to think of an alternative solution. I would need to somehow purge the incoming line of that bad water.

[branjo101]

Gary,

The city states that the water is about 18 grain hardness w/ .7-2ppm iron. I have had the water tested and it is about 20 grain w/ 2-2.5 ppm iron. Coming out of my iron filter, I get about .5 ppm iron. I have my water softner set for about 25 grain hardness. For the most part when I don't get the bad injection of iron into the house, the water seems pretty good for showers, dishwashing, clothes, etc. I wouldn't mind looking into getting a bigger iron filter when it is due for another rebedding. My neighbors only have softners. I don't know how they get by. I asked my neighbor next to me and they said they don't get the big plume of iron coming in. When they first moved in, they said they did, but then had a Kinetico Water softner put in and it has solved there problems. They run their sprinklers more oftne than I do. Probably every day...sometimes twice a day. From reading what you guys are saying, I don't think any water softner could handle what I'm seeing coming in.

BTW, what's a good backwash and rinse setting time for the iron filter. It is currently set for about 15/15 minutes and goes off every 3 days.

Thanks for your help...I've learned a lot from reading the posts and comments

[Gary Slusser]

Here's what I found out:

1. I ran the sprinklers while I was away for the day. The Iron Filter and Softner were in bypass.

2. Came home and noticed a little bit of iron in the particulate filter between the iron filter and softner. No water house water was used during the day, so that was kind of puzzeling.

If that is true then that means there was water flow into the house. That says you had water running in a toilet such as overfilling the tank or the flapper valve leaks and then the toilet refills the tank or water use like an RO/icemaker or a leak somewhere else. Check the height of the water in all the toilet tanks is about 1" below the top of the overflow tube, usually there is a Water Line_________ on the tube; that is the most common cause of this type problem.

3. Went to the outside spigot (fed directly from city supply)

4. Ran for about a minute and then the water turned really bad (loaded w/ iron like picture). There was NO iron filter and softner in the loop.

5. The water supply to the house seemed to be normal after about 40-50 gallons went through.

6. Put the iron filter and softner back inline and house water was crystal clear.

Just as I said, no water backwards thru the equipment; dirty city water.

I ended up calling the city and they are going to send someone out to blow out the incoming feeder line to the house. I don't don't know if this will work; I'm pretty skeptical. Anyway, that is where I am today. So, it sounds like the sprinklers are drawing in or loosening up iron that is sitting in the line.

Yep, just as I said was the only possible cause. Now the water company guys have experience in this so I go with them as to their cure (it should work or reduce the rust volume so your filter can remove it) and I have done the same thing on private wells with this problem.

If blowing out the feeder line does not work, I'm trying to think of an alternative solution. I would need to somehow purge the incoming line of that bad water.

No, if there is still some rusty water, your filter should be able to remove the reduced volume and you shouldn't see any rusty water past the filter.

In your last post you say the filter is backwashed every 3 days, do it every 2nd day if the filter can't handle the reduced volume of rust after the city guys flush the line.

You haven't said how many people live in the house but with 2.5 ppm of iron and using Birm, I can see the size of the filter is about 3/4 cuft or 1.0 cuft, right (an 8" x44" or a 9" x 48")? If so the filter is too small for more than 1 person with the rust in the main line problem unless you backwash it like every or every other night.

WALLY HAYES, apologies expected ASAP.

[Gary Slusser]

Gary,
I have had the water tested and it is about 20 grain w/ 2-2.5 ppm iron.

Coming out of my iron filter, I get about .5 ppm iron.

I have my water softner set for about 25 grain hardness.

I wouldn't mind looking into getting a bigger iron filter when it is due for another rebedding.

My neighbors only have softners. I don't know how they get by.

I asked my neighbor next to me and they said they don't get the big plume of iron coming in. When they first moved in, they said they did,

They run their sprinklers more oftne than I do. Probably every day...sometimes twice a day.

From reading what you guys are saying, I don't think any water softner could handle what I'm seeing coming in.

The iron filter should be removing all the iron, since it isn't you can backwash it every other night and see what to does. Any iron it allows thru, the softener has to deal with.

Your neighbors flushed their line out sooner than you have because they run more water thru it than is going thru yours.

A regular softener (w/o any prefiltration) can not be used on dirty water.

With clear water a regular softener can be used on up to 5 ppm as long as you use a resin cleaner and with special resin etc. I've used a softener on up to 13 ppm of iron.

[Wally Hays]

I'll get right on that just as soon as I get the whole book of apologies for every wrong post you have ever made LOL

In the mean time though, I stand by my post. there should be a BFP on the supply inlet

[Gary Slusser]

Please, anytime you see me say anything wrong like your check valve here, point it out and either debate your position or prove me wrong then instead of your single sentence stuff. And, like Bob's 11K and minutes for backwash, speak up.

So far there has been no need shown for a check valve, or then the have to let the water heater T/P valve to leak to have to add an expansion tank and then to replace the leaking T/P valve.