How to protect well pump from dry running?

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Sprinkler

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Hi, I want to install a 1hp pump in a 60 meter (about 180 feet) water well. I have 3 questions:

1. I prefer not to use the 3 probe sensors, so can you recommend a good electronic pump protection kit so as to prevent dry running?

2. The pump outlet is 4 cm - would it be acceptable to use the same size pipe (4 cm) just for the well height - in this case about 55 meters, and to connect to the already buried pipe which I think is 2,5 cm? Or would it be necessary to use the 4 cm pipe all the way to the water tank in the attic?

3. Would it be possible to drop some kind of underwater pressure switch to say 10 meters above the pump, so that when the water level gets too near the pump, the pressure switch would turn off the pump? Thank you.
 

rickyjohn12

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Pumptec is used to protect your submersible water well pump from running dry. Pumptec is a solid state device to protect your submersible pump system. Franklin makes most of the submersible pump motors used in water wells. When the water level drops too far, the motor will start to run faster, due to less load on the pump. When the pump motor changes speed, it affects the amp load on the motor leads. Pumptec will interrupt power to the motor whenever load drops below a preset level. After a preset time, Pumptec will restart the motor. This model Pumptec is used on Franklin 2 wire and 3 wire single phase submersible pump motors ranging from 1/3 hp up to 1-1/2 hp. Pumptec can be used on both 115 volt and 230 volt motors. Pumptec is not designed to be used on permanent split capacitor motors or on jet pumps. Do not use Pumptec with a pump system using a Dole flow control valve. Pumptec is also not recommended for low yielding wells where the water cascades down onto the pump.
Pumptec can be set to stay off from 2 minutes up to 90 minutes, when tripped, or can be set for manual reset. This allows your water well to recover to a safe operating level before restarting the pump motor. When Pumptec detects that the motor load has dropped below a preset level for over 4 seconds, Pumptec will interrupt power to the motor and display the tripped condition light. To reset the Pumptec manually, turn off the power supply for 5 seconds, then turn it back on.
 

Ballvalve

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Seems to me a dole valve is permissable unless its of a very restricted flow according to the pumps output. This of course, along with the correct adjustments possible within the full size pumptec circuit board.

Why would this not work with a top fed well of low capacity?
 

Thatguy

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10 meters above the pump, so that when the water level gets too near the pump, the pressure switch would turn off the pump? Thank you.
Sounds like a simple Normally Open [NO] float switch 10 meters above the pump would work for this. While the float is under water the switch is closed and the pump can run.

The switch contacts have to be rated for a "motor load" at whatever amps your pump draws. 1 hp @ 240 V might draw 6 A or more.
 
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Valveman

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It is hard to keep a float switch from hanging on something in small diameter casing. If a float switch doesn’t hang up it can bounce a pump on and off as the water level changes a few inches. Probes are better so you can put some distance between the on and off probes.

The Cycle Sensor does the same thing as a Pumptec, except it has more adjustment range and will work with a 1 GPM Dole Valve. The Cycle Sensor will also work with jet pumps, or split capacitor motors. The Cycle Sensor also has more adjustment than a Pumptec, from 1 minute to 300 minutes. So the Cycle Sensor will do the same job as a Pumptec, it just doesn’t have all the problems you mentioned that the Pumtec has.
 

Thatguy

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put some distance between the on and off probes.
It's hysteresis.
The 'Net definitions for this are terrible but the effect is that the system doesn't needlessly trigger on small variations.

Do any of these sensors tell the owner when they activate?
It seems this would be helpful for troubleshooting since there are probably many bad reasons why a pump would stop and only one good reason.
 
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Valveman

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The Cycle Sensor shows 000 when the pump is off. It reads the running amps while the pump is on. It flashes DRY when shut off for low amperage and stays that way until reset or timed out. It flashes RCYC if the pump is off because of rapid cycling. Pretty simple and I think more dependable than some of the others.
 

Valveman

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Sorry man I don't believe in cycle stop systems due from my experience with them. Way to many warranty calls. This is something new by them but we gave up on them long before this product was out. This would not work for us because we put everything at the well head. We use a in well CSV which they dont make anymore. This setup is so you dont need a well house and not to worry about freezing issues because your tank is buried and the pressure switch is in your well down by the pitless adapter to keep from freezing. I do like cycle stops on just a yard well but not the house because most of the customers that have these systems cant remember that a 1gpm leak will give them a very high electric bill. Then they call us because they know that thats not the usual bill amount. No telling on long the pump has been running continuously at a high back pressure that puts wear on the pump. Chokes down the well do they same thing so that why at last resort you use them over a pumptec.

We don't have warranty problems with CSV's. If you are having warranty problems it is from installer error, not the CSV. The new CSV125 valves work great and are made to fit in the well.

And again, if you have 1 GPM leaking it is much better for the pump to run continuously than to cycle on/off continuously. And again the high back pressure DOES NOT put wear on the pump, it is actually easier on the pump. The pump will last forever, especially with higher back pressure, if it never shuts off. Cycling on/off is what destroys pumps.

You got to quit listening to the propaganda those pump companies are telling you. Ask them to put in writing that a CSV is hard on the pump. They won't do it because they know it is not true. But ask them about using a 1 GPM Dole valve on a weak producing well and they will be fine with that, even though it is EXACTLY the same thing a CSV does. They will just say anything to keep you from using a CSV and making the pump last many times longer than normal.
 

Valveman

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Like i said when you have one last over 40yrs then you can say something. My uncle has been installing water well pumps longer than you been alive.

I doubt that. I helped fix my first well pump in 1968. Your uncle is probably a good man. But I find it true that many old dogs are just unable to learn new tricks.
 

Craigpump

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Pressure switches in wells? Yeah, that won't ever create a service call....

That's as bad as a control box wrapped in a plastic bag and shoved inside the casing.
 

Valveman

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I have the patent on In Well pressure tanks. Flexcon just waited until my patent expired to start making them so they wouldn't have to pay me, the same way they did Amtrol on regular diaphragm tanks. So I have a lot of experience with pressure switches in the well casing. In some places you can make them work. In most areas the air in the well is so humid the wire and contacts in the pressure switch corrode and turn green very quickly. Kind of the same thing that happens when you put the control box in a plastic sack and stick it underground or in the well.

Time hasn't told you anything. I have a son your age and he thinks he knows everything too. Time has told your uncle that he doesn't want to try and learn something new and improved. You always make a few mistakes when trying something different. But the first time you have a problem, just saying "this doesn't work" and going back to the old way doesn't teach you anything. If you figure out what you did wrong, then you have learned something. If you don't try to figure out what you are doing wrong, you never learn anything.

Doing what you are comfortable with is the safest thing, but not necessarily the best thing, especially for the customer. Oh and I may have only been doing this since 68, but my family has been in the business since about 1900. I have a picture of my grandfathers drill rig from 1929 hanging on the wall.
 

Terry

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Like i said when you have one last over 40yrs then you can say something. My uncle has been installing water well pumps longer than you been alive.

That doesn't mean much. Doing something a long time the same way, not trying new things, not saying much.
I like the new ideas, and the people that never stop learning the trade. New dogs and new tricks. :)
 

Craigpump

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How long I've been in the business isn't important, it's what I've learned while in business that counts. But since you asked I started in the business when I was a kid helping my father install Rapi Dayton jet pumps and I was running a hoist truck at 16 in 1973.

Pressure switches and control boxes in wells work, but certainly isn't acceptable practice, like 3 lug nuts instead of 5, it works, kinda. In fact, if an inspector here in Ct saw that done you'd be in front of the board explaining yourself.
 

Valveman

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We did find the problem it was CSV. We still have a few in well tanks around, just so happens we are taking one out tomorrow that went bad. I want proof that the CSV was installed the same time as the pump to show that they can work 40yrs together because I dont think they can.

I warrantied a lot of CSV's because the bladder in those in well tanks broke. When the in well tank bladder breaks the pump pounds on and off and brads the valve against the seat in the CSV, and destroys the CSV. I warrantied the CSV's even though they did not cause the problem. I would have warrantied any CSV you sent back as well, no matter how old they were. Then I would have had the chance to tell you what really caused the problem, because it was not the CSV. But anytime there is a problem some people are quick to blame the CSV. It is an easy Scapegoat. Just blame the problem on the CSV and go back to the "traditional" big tank method. It takes the monkey off the installer, which is usually what caused the problem, not the CSV.

The in well tanks don't hold enough water and the bladder design causes them to fail, which is why I never put one on the market myself. I made lots of prototypes and was never happy enough with them to put them on the market. But in well tanks are so small they certainly will not work without a CSV.

I was about your age when I filed for the patents on the CSV. But I didn't think I knew everything. I had a lot more questions than answers. I have spent the last 24 years testing and trying to find answers as to why CSV's works so well. I still don't claim to know all the answers, but I know more about it than most people. One thing I am sure of and have proof of, is that pump companies do not like CSV's BECAUSE they work so well. If they had proof of one problem caused by a CSV they would put it in large print on every page. But you won't find them saying anything negative in writing, because there are laws against false claims. I know they are still saying things to make CSV's sound bad, or you would not have heard that about "one foot on the gas and one on the brake", and "high backpressure causing damage", which neither of is true. Just think about it though. They make a killing selling pumps and tanks. Would they really say anything good about a product that makes pumps last longer and use smaller tanks?
 

Valveman

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I think all of you are blowing smoke because CSV product hasn't been around long enough to say that they are better than a traditional system. I believe they wont come close either.

What you believe and what is really the truth are two different things. That is all we are trying to tell you.
 

Texas Wellman

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All pumps break. All tanks eventually fail. All electrical components will fail. And yes, even CSV's will eventually break and fail. Find what works best for your area/customer base/needs and stick with it. Don't think that what works in your area will work just as well everywhere in the country.
 
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