How can I store tanks with resin in them?

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NHmaster3015

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In fact skip, Purolite estimates their resin life at about 10 years give or take a few. I tell my customers the same thing that you do. Honestly though, If I had to guess, I'd bet that most are getting better than 15.

Considering the size of the brine line doing a fast brine rinse would seem well.... impossible LOL My god what a convoluted mish mash of misinformation that has been introduced here. Articles posted and quoted that in no way support the argument and yet somehow words that were never there suddenly appear along with assumptions that have no basis in fact. A simple call or email to the engineering department at Purolite or any other resin manufacturer should have sufficed and indeed one member here did make that call and was told that brine immersion would have negligable effect on resin degradation but alas, that was not deemed a proper source and was called "his man at Purolite" as though he was a floor sweeper. An then the mans expertese was further questioned because of the spelling of the word salinometer as though misspelling a word is somehow an indicator of a persons base of knowlege. I suppose that the resin manufacturer knows nothing about their own product. LOL
 
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Gary Slusser

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You posted several quotes about osmotic shock but you neglected to tell us what point (or points) you believe the quotes support.

To me the quotes support my conclusion earlier (that you seemed to dismiss)--specifically "My take on the Hellenbrand article is that damage from osmotic shock results from repeated (as in many) cycles. I don't see anything in the article that says a one time event has much effect. ".
That's because you aren't trying very hard.

Here are a few examples of what you must have missed.

"Alternate exposure of resins to high and low concentrations of electrolytes" Bob why is the word high mentioned?

"To do so, immerse it in a 20 percent salt solution for about 20 minutes." Bob, why the 20% limit?

"Exposure of resins to high and low concentrations of electrolytes" Bob, there's that word high again.

Now you may not believe that home mixed brine of unknown strength poured into a resin tank, or that a high strength brine causes osmotic shock, but I will until you or the others prove your claim(s) and prove me wrong. Recall I did ask you to define "much effect", and as yet you haven't.

The fact is that there is no reason to store resin in brine and if it is, IMO there is a good possibility of damaging the resin due to osmotic shock.
 

Gary Slusser

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Give it up. You are wrong.

Plus no softener to my knowledge uses a fast rinse to draw and introduce brine during a regeneration (do you know of any?). The quote was to correct Wally after he said that water hammer caused osmotic shock which is actually caused by brine;

Wally never said that. Please go back and read more thouroughly. When you assume you make an.......
Oh but Wally did say that in post #23. And NOW you say "normal brining" but before it was "overbrining". Here it is Wally, I've emphasized the parts you now say you never said;

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Originally Posted by Wally Hays

http://www.hellenbrand.com/my_files/...irth_print.pdf

Read the entire article and after doing so it occurs to me that there has been a misunderstanding of what exactly osmotic shock is and how it effects resin. Brining in and of itself does not cause osmotic shock. The shock occurs when overbrining combined with the rapid rinse cycle or water hammer conditions happen. Brining causes the beads to swell, which is normal and expected. Osmotic shock occurs when those swelled beads are subjected to stress such as the rapid rinse cycle or swelling and contraction over a shortened period of time.
 

NHmaster3015

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You have proven beyond a shadow of doubt that you have no clue what your are talking about here and are mis interpreting, selectivly editing and confusing the thead, posts and issue to the point where nobody can even begin to follow your train of thought. I've had enough. I'm not going to spend the next few days saying the same thing over and over, neither am I going to spend my time trying to sort out the mess that you have made of this thread. Let's simplify the entire issue here and now. Here is my stand on the origional question

Leaving resin in a normal solution of brine for an extended period of time will not appreciably degrade the resin

Even so, there is no reason to take the trouble to mix up a brine solution to store the resin in so why bother.

Osmotic shock is NOT caused by the brining alone. There are other factors that have to be in place.

Done.

Go mess in some other sandbox for awhile
 

Bob999

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That's because you aren't trying very hard.

Here are a few examples of what you must have missed.

"Alternate exposure of resins to high and low concentrations of electrolytes" Bob why is the word high mentioned?

"To do so, immerse it in a 20 percent salt solution for about 20 minutes." Bob, why the 20% limit?

"Exposure of resins to high and low concentrations of electrolytes" Bob, there's that word high again.

Now you may not believe that home mixed brine of unknown strength poured into a resin tank, or that a high strength brine causes osmotic shock, but I will until you or the others prove your claim(s) and prove me wrong. Recall I did ask you to define "much effect", and as yet you haven't.

The fact is that there is no reason to store resin in brine and if it is, IMO there is a good possibility of damaging the resin due to osmotic shock.

So you have posted again without telling us what YOUR points are. I have told you what I understand to be the important take away from all this information--"My take on the Hellenbrand article is that damage from osmotic shock results from repeated (as in many) cycles. I don't see anything in the article that says a one time event has much effect. "

You are critical of my post because I don't quantify "much" but then you post terms such as "high" and "low" (refering to concentrations) but don't quantify your meaning.

You post snippets of information but don't explain what you think they mean--rather you post questions as to what I think they mean. Very difficult to have an informed discussion with you so at this point I am giving up--again and will simply ignore your questions, taunts, etc, etc, etc.

I will add that what the various articles make clear is that brine solutions SHRINK resin beads and water EXPANDS resin beads. Osmotic shock is the technical term for a rapid change from one state to the other.
 
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Bob999

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Show us something that says that osmotic shock is a rapid change from one state to the other, and define what states you're talking about. Otherwise you're simply making unsubstantiated claims again.


From Wikipedia:

Osmotic shock or osmotic stress is a sudden change in the solute concentration around a cell, causing a rapid change in the movement of water across its cell membrane. Under conditions of high concentrations of either salts, substrates or any solute in the supernatant, water is drawn out of the cells through osmosis. This also inhibits the transport of substrates and cofactors into the cell thus “shocking†the cell. Alternatively, at low concentrations of solutes, water enters the cell in large amounts, causing it to swell and either burst or undergo apoptosis.[1]
 

Skip Wolverton

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In fact skip, Purolite estimates their resin life at about 10 years give or take a few. I tell my customers the same thing that you do. Honestly though, If I had to guess, I'd bet that most are getting better than 15.

Considering the size of the brine line doing a fast brine rinse would seem well.... impossible LOL My god what a convoluted mish mash of misinformation that has been introduced here. Articles posted and quoted that in no way support the argument and yet somehow words that were never there suddenly appear along with assumptions that have no basis in fact. A simple call or email to the engineering department at Purolite or any other resin manufacturer should have sufficed and indeed one member here did make that call and was told that brine immersion would have negligable effect on resin degradation but alas, that was not deemed a proper source and was called "his man at Purolite" as though he was a floor sweeper. An then the mans expertese was further questioned because of the spelling of the word salinometer as though misspelling a word is somehow an indicator of a persons base of knowlege. I suppose that the resin manufacturer knows nothing about their own product. LOL
I like your comments. LOL You might be a.............. I have always thought that the reason units don't brine in the fast rinse mode is due to contact time and not osmonic shock. Besides, water follows the path of least resistance and may not have a strong brine draw if the most of it is traveling to the drain. But that my opinion. So the next time I'm on a service call, I will measure the brine concentration with a salameter to make sure the customers unit does not suffer from osmonic shock rendering it useless after 15 years.
 

Bob999

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And to get to 45% strength you have to heat the water or play around with pH adjustment, we are not into more than 26%.

Not necessarily true! As posted by Nukeman earlier in this thread--"Sure, there are several ways to do it. Molar fraction, salinity, weight %, etc. We know that the 26% is a weight %. We also know that the 3lb number is commonly reported. Having these two points, one can infer that a mixture weight % is used. Now if you only had the 26% number and nothing else, you would need more details as to what the 26% means. "
 

Skip Wolverton

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Show me where I said more than 26% Andy.


Correct, no maybe about it. Tell Bob and Wally..


You're getting close, so tell me how Mike, the OP here, will remove his brine from the resin when he gets around a number of months from now to reinstall his softener. Is there any possibility that he has a higher than 10% solution in the tank (if he stores his resin in brine now) and then puts the unit into backwash (a fast rinse) after doing the plumbing? I certainly think so as he should if for no other reason than to get the air out of the tank.

He also asked about sanitizing the resin and tank after storage, which would be easier to do before installing the softener. Or, might he turn on a garden hose half open (say 5 gpm) and stick it down in the tank and/or resin to get the months old stagnant water, brine and/or bleach out? I think that is possible and how I would tell hm to do it IF there were no brine in the tank as some suggested was OK, before he screws on the control valve as he gets ready to install the softener.

So osmotic shock as he pours the brine water in or, in your definition, as he goes to get the brine water out, he runs a high risk of damaging his resin. I think my caution of not storing the resin with brine in it was correct here in this thread, in the recent thread on filtersfast where you are a moderator and on my forum in the thread that you linked to here in this thread.

Gary, you make a very strong point here, but man you sure went a long way around it.
 

Gary Slusser

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Not necessarily true! As posted by Nukeman earlier in this thread--"Sure, there are several ways to do it. Molar fraction, salinity, weight %, etc. We know that the 26% is a weight %. We also know that the 3lb number is commonly reported. Having these two points, one can infer that a mixture weight % is used. Now if you only had the 26% number and nothing else, you would need more details as to what the 26% means. "
Andy mentioned being told 15-25%, you're talking about 26%, all are above the 10% that softeners are brined with.

Why do you suppose Andy was told 15-25% and 15% by another guy with an implied not to go over it? Why not 26% to 45%?

Well let's see, here is an exact copy of what was said with emphasis by me;
*************
Bill from CAI Technologies (215-679-0470) said there is no damage or problem by leaving resins in a brine solution for extended periods of time. Avoid freezing and SUDDEN thawing.
Jason from DOW Chemical (800-258-2436) said there is no problem or damage by leaving resins in a 15% to 25% brine solution for extened periods of time.
Dwight from Sybron (800-678-0020) should return my call shortly.
Bob from Res Kem (800-323-1983) said there is no problem or damage by leaving resins in a brine solution of 15+% for extended periods of time. Just avoid freezing. The resins will swell but there is no damage and resins should be perform as expected.
*************
Why does Bob say "The resins will swell" but no damage? There is no rinse of any kind mentioned in that. Yet you Andy and Wally go on about fast rinse causing osmotic shock and that brine won't/can't/doesn't cause it.

In the same post, post #55, Andy says you don't use any rinse while brining: "Well, it is more than a matter of confused symantics here, isn't it? One would never use a 'rinse' cycle while 'brining,' afterall. Rinse (fast or slow) and brining are completely opposite in function and design. I wonder why he uses such terms that maybe a novice might use.".

The He is me, yet I know there is no brining during regeneration unless there is a slow rinse to draw and transport brine into the resin in the resin tank. Right? In most softeners brining actually stops long before the slow rinse water flow stops. It is mentioned in the article I posted where it talks about a wave going through the resin bed.

If as you guys say, brine doesn't cause osmotic shock, why the explanation of brining in an article describing osmotic shock?

You, Andy, Wally all say osmotic shock is due to water flow, not brine, so how do you explain the above, as misstatements made by Andy's Professionals or someone other than me being confused?

Andy and Wally, same question to you.
 
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