How can I store tanks with resin in them?

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Nukeman

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Yep. It is about 3lb. Here's a quick/dirty check.

1 gallon of water ~8lb

add 3lb salt

Mixture is now ~11 lb (3 + 8)

3lb (salt) / 11lb (total) = 27.3%

As mentioned above, the limit is actually about 26%, so this shows about 3lb is good using a rough calc.

This is how much salt can totally dissolve.
 

Jadnashua

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FWIW, there are different ways to specify percentages. For example, you can disolve about 38g of NaCl in 100g of water, so if you take the weight of the salt/total weight of the solution, it comes out to about 27%, but if you use the ratio, it's 38/100, or 38%. Different application use different methods to specify, and it is easy to confuse the situation. There are other ways, such as gram equivalent per liter, molality, etc. So, to talk apples and apples, rather than apples/oranges, you need to know the specific method used to define the numbers involved. From what I can infer from reading, the swollen beads are easier to damage, and would make it more difficult to measure things - if you were rebedding, you might not use as much gravel as you should. And, the first regeneration with those softer, swollen beads from long-term storage might create some problems. Storing them in plain water would seem a safer choice. this is not from experience, but from a conceptual view.
 

Akpsdvan

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HI HO HI HO it back to the masters we go....:D

And to think that the question was what?

Can I leave my softener with salt in over x number of months... real simple.. and the simple answer is?

One could but why would one do so?
 

Skip Wolverton

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You are correct Skip. soaking resin in brine does indeed expand the resin but that will not in itself appreciably weaken it. It's the sudden and constant expansion and contraction of the resin beads that causes them to degrade.
Thanks for the clairity. I knew it was due to expansion and contraction that's why the balloon thing. You are accused of being me. I hope you are as good as I am. Don't want to mess with my reputation. LOL
 

Skip Wolverton

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Yep. It is about 3lb. Here's a quick/dirty check.

1 gallon of water ~8lb

add 3lb salt

Mixture is now ~11 lb (3 + 8)

3lb (salt) / 11lb (total) = 27.3%

As mentioned above, the limit is actually about 26%, so this shows about 3lb is good using a rough calc.

This is how much salt can totally dissolve.
Nukeman. I like your style. Straight to the point. I was rised in Dale City, Va. Hope youe are a Skins fan.
 

Nukeman

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lol...

Jim: Sure, there are several ways to do it. Molar fraction, salinity, weight %, etc. We know that the 26% is a weight %. We also know that the 3lb number is commonly reported. Having these two points, one can infer that a mixture weight % is used. Now if you only had the 26% number and nothing else, you would need more details as to what the 26% means. However, using the mixture % makes the most sense. This way, if I have a tub of solution that is mixed to say 15%, I know that 15% is salt and 85% is water. I don't have to try to figure out how many lbs of water they mixed with how many lbs of salt to get that solution.

Skip: I'm fairly new to the east side of the US. I grew up in OR.

Gary: You mentioned the "salimeter" before (that google couldn't find). I believe this was just a typo and was supposed to be "salometer". These measure salt content of your brine solution. From the name, one would hope that it measured the tastiness of salami or smoked salmon, but unfortunately, it does not. :( :p

One common way of measuring salt content is to measure the conductivity of the solution. It is not always a perfect reading, and there are limitations, but this works pretty well to measure relative concentrations. I've done an experiment where we used a salt water solution to mimic colder water (salt water more dense) and used tap water to mimic the hotter water. We were interested in measuring mixing in a nuke plant. The idea is that if you have a break, colder water is pumped in to make up for what goes out the break. We wanted to see how the colder water (salt water) mixed with the hotter water. I built a conductivity probe and a circuit to drive it (used AC signal, about 20kHz). As you moved the probe across the pipe, the conductivity (and output voltage) changed. It was pretty cool because we added a dye to the salt water, so you could see this salt water layer flowing along the bottom of the pipe (used clear PVC pipe for the experiment). Your 1st thought is that you would see a spike in the conductivity once you hit that layer (and you do). However, if you looked closely, you could see smaller changes as you were moving closer to the layer (but were still in the fresh water layer) and could also measure changes when you were in the salt layer. See, at the interface between the salt/fresh water, there was some mixing going on there. Anyway, not much to do with softeners, but might be of interest to some.
 

NHmaster3015

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NM, the more common method is with an instrument that takes the specific gravity of the solution. You can get one at a pet store that sells salt water tropical fish.
 

Gary Slusser

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http://www.hellenbrand.com/my_files/PDFs for Water Treatment Articles/2010_02_Wirth_print.pdf

Read the entire article and after doing so it occurs to me that there has been a misunderstanding of what exactly osmotic shock is and how it effects resin. Brining in and of itself does not cause osmotic shock. The shock occurs when overbrining combined with the rapid rinse cycle or water hammer conditions happen. Brining causes the beads to swell, which is normal and expected. Osmotic shock occurs when those swelled beads are subjected to stress such as the rapid rinse cycle or swelling and contraction over a shortened period of time.

Mid right hand column page 2.
***********
Osmotic shock differs from hydraulic shock in that osmotic shock is the swelling and contacting of the bead, where hydraulic shock is the physical destruction of the bead by external water force (water hammer). Over time, beads will succumb to osmotic shock and eventually some will crack.

As the beads crack, they break apart and lose mass. Partial beads lift higher in the backwash process and can exit out the drain. One should note that even cracked and broken beads function.
Osmotic shock is one of the major contributors to normal resin attrition. In addition, broken bead particles increase pressure drop through a softener by tightening and/or compacting the bed surface, filling the void spaces with bead particulate.
*************
Here is where you probably went wrong Wally.
Bottom right corner of page 2.
**********
In an immediate fast-rinse scenario, water enters the bead in large amounts, causing it to swell, crack and possibly burst (Figure 6). This is the reason for the slow-rinse cycle; rinsing the resin bed slowly helps prevent this condition.
************
As you should know, brine is introduced in the SLOW Rinse cycle position, not fast rinse. The reason for slow rinse is to allow proper time to dilute the brine strength to 10% with the water in the resin tank and thereby to slowly swell the beads so as to prevent breakage of the beads due to osmotic shock caused by the introduction of the brine. Recall that the salt brine solution is substantially diluted (down to 10%) because it is being mixed in the water in the resin tank.

Here we have someone mixing an unknown solution strength and pouring it into the resin tank quickly and my guess is that there is little fresh water in the tank to dilute the strength of this brine to 10% because he doesn't want to over fill the tank before he gets all the brine into it and he will top off the level of water with fresh water after adding the brine if he has too little brine solution.

That's why doing resin storage in brine is a bad idea and why your statement below is incorrect.

Leaving the beads in a normal brine solution will swell the beads but unless they are subjected to stress during storage, damage should be minimal if at all. Reading through all of these articles is interesting because in not one single article does it say that storing resin in brine solutin will destroy or degrade the resin, which is contrary to what I have always believed, so..... Thank you BD for enlightening all of us.
Which proves my point that until now you and BD/Andy knew little to nothing about osmotic shock (and you and BD/Andy still have it wrong).

Again. In an immediate fast-rinse scenario, water (WOULD) enter the bead in large amounts, causing it to swell, crack and possibly burst (Figure 6). This is the reason for the slow-rinse BRINE cycle; rinsing the resin bed slowly helps prevent this condition.

The "condition" is osmotic shock due to 10% or less brine strength causing osmotic shock while you, BD/Andy and Skippy etc. all say it is fine to store resin in any strength brine.

Y'all are wrong, and doing nothing but agitating.
 

Bob999

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Here we have someone mixing an unknown solution strength and pouring it into the resin tank quickly and my guess is that there is little fresh water in the tank to dilute the strength of this brine to 10% because he doesn't want to over fill the tank before he gets all the brine into it and he will top off the level of water with fresh water after adding the brine if he has too little brine solution.

If you make enough assumptions you can support almost any point.

My take on the Hellenbrand article is that damage from osmotic shock results from repeated (as in many) cycles. I don't see anything in the article that says a one time event has much effect.
 

Jadnashua

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Sitting in the brine solution for a long time means the beads will swell to their maximum size, become soft, and are much more subject to damage. Why risk it at all when plain water is readily available, and safer?
 

Bob999

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Sitting in the brine solution for a long time means the beads will swell to their maximum size, become soft, and are much more subject to damage. Why risk it at all when plain water is readily available, and safer?

My understanding of the Hellenbrand article is just the opposite--I think that you have it backwards.

"Under conditions of high concentrations of brine (45 percent salinity or greater), water is drawn out of the bead due to osmosis, and the bead shrinks.
In an immediate fast-rinse scenario, water enters the bead in large amounts, causing it to swell, crack and possibly burst (Figure 6)."
 

Skip Wolverton

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B]

The "condition" is osmotic shock due to 10% or less brine strength causing osmotic shock while you, BD/Andy and Skippy etc. all say it is fine to store resin in any strength brine.

Y'all are wrong, and doing nothing but agitating.
[/B]

Now Mr. Slusser, I want you to show me where I said it was ok to store resin in brine. When you can not find it, I would like you to revise your comment. Thank you very much.
 

NHmaster3015

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I've got a system that I won't be installing for a while. I don't really know when I will have the time so I need to store them for a while.

I mixed us some brine in a bucket and filled them up. How long can I store them like that or is there a better method? Is it correct that they shouldn't be stored dry? Will the brine prevent the water from becoming really gross or will I have to change it once in a while?

Thanks.

Ask a simple question and get...................lol

Anyway, though storing your resin in brine solution will not harm it any, neither is there a reason to store it that way. Re-generate the unit to get rid of the brine and after is has cycled you can stor it with clean water, it will be fine.
 

Gary Slusser

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If you make enough assumptions you can support almost any point.

My take on the Hellenbrand article is that damage from osmotic shock results from repeated (as in many) cycles. I don't see anything in the article that says a one time event has much effect.
So tell us how you think Mike will do this. IMO he certainly isn't going to go get a salometer and measure the 10% unless he already has one. So tell us how he will mix the solution and get it into the tank.

As to your take on the info in the article, you're allowed an opinion, and I'm still allowed to disagree with you by pointing out the facts of the normal regeneration cycles of cation softener resin that shows your take is wrong.

You don't think "a one time event has much effect". Define "much" and how would you know how much would cause osmotic shock?

Reading the article you should have seen the 10% brine strength part. That 10% is measured in the discharge water of the softener while the unit is in the brine/slow rinse cycle position of the regeneration Bob. So if you pour a higher strength solution into the resin how do you know that the diluted strength is not above the 10%; and that no damage would be done? YOU DON"T, you just think there wouldn't be "much" (mostly to disagree with me IMO).

So far I am the only one that has put up any info on osmotic shock, why is that Bob, Andy, Wally, Skipper?

Below is the link to the Google search again for resin + "osmotic shock", it should be quick and easy to find something that says I'm wrong, if I am, otherwise I'll stay with what I've said; storing resin in brine is a bad idea. And I'll add that there is no logical reason to do so.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=&q=...t-ff&rlz=1B3GGGL_en___US358&ie=UTF-8&aq=3&oq=
 

Bob999

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So far I am the only one that has put up any info on osmotic shock, why is that Bob, Andy, Wally, Skipper?

I think you have totally lost it--there is no one using the name Andy posting in this thread.

Additionally, if you look back you will see I posted a quote that specifically dealt with the subject.
 

Skip Wolverton

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So much for the up flow brine type units as the brine entering the resin is in the 26% range at the start and first coming into contact with resin that is often not discharged.

That would not be the case Ak. In order to create a draw, water (soft or hard) passes though the venturi which pulls the brine so a mixing will occur (water+brine) there by diluting the brine.
 

Skip Wolverton

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But not down to the 10%
I've never measured the concentration other than getting a mouth full checking if it's rinsed enough. I don't know of anyone in service or sales that would. It's good knowledge but how will it help a sale or service. When (if) I have a customer ask about osmonic shock, I'll sure know what to tell them. The same damn thing I've been saying for years, "Resin wears out over time".
 
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