Kinetico alternatives?

**Mastiff** · 09-06-2010, 08:30 AM

We're looking to install a softener and we are pre-plumbed in a "remote" location (outside the house on the side). Running electrical to this spot would be either extremely difficult or cosmetically ugly, maybe both. So a non-electric unit like Kinetico is very appealing. I have good brand association with Kinetico, but the sticker shock ($4000 installed) is crazy. Is there another brand that makes a metered non-electric softener a DIY guy could install? Given that I have all the space I need and the plumbing is already set up for softener, it couldn't get much easier. I just haven't been able to find another non-electric brand. Thank for any help.

**Wally Hays** · 09-06-2010, 08:41 AM

I don't think so, but then I have not taken a lot of Google time on the subject either. Are you sure you can't get a wire back there? You really only need a 15A circuit. Look into pvc conduit. If you can get power back there there are a lot of units that you can install yourself. Try to stay away from cabinet units and big box store stuff. Most of it is crap. Fleck would be my first choice.

**Mastiff** · 09-06-2010, 09:26 AM

We have a brick house with a flat roof, so wiring involves either fishing wires through all the roof boards (and the brick side) or running something around the whole house on the outside. Or drilling a hole in the brick and trying to connect to an existing indoor outlet... or going up onto the roof (not sure how to be safe/code compliant on that one). Oh, I suppose I could dig a trench around the house through the desert rock (ugh).

Does Kinetico really have an active patent on their water powered system still?

**Akpsdvan** · 09-06-2010, 10:02 AM

You might find some one selling a used one.

You might ask an Eletrician to see if they could take a leg off the well pump to run a softener like a Fleck 9100 if you need a twin or one of Fleck's single units.

Then there is a manual softener.. one that you step through the reg cycle.

**Skip Wolverton** · 09-06-2010, 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by Mastiff

We have a brick house with a flat roof, so wiring involves either fishing wires through all the roof boards (and the brick side) or running something around the whole house on the outside. Or drilling a hole in the brick and trying to connect to an existing indoor outlet... or going up onto the roof (not sure how to be safe/code compliant on that one). Oh, I suppose I could dig a trench around the house through the desert rock (ugh).

Does Kinetico really have an active patent on their water powered system still?

I know of no other company that makes a non-electric unit. With a 24 volt system running the electric is very easy and hassle free.

**Gary Slusser** · 09-06-2010, 10:13 AM

Autotrol, Fleck and Erie are much larger and older companies that manufacture more control valves than Kinetico and none of them have a water powered (nonelectric) control valve, like Kinetico. And Clack has many models of control valves and none are water powered. Fleck has many twin tank type control valves and none are water powered. You need to ask yourself why not. Fleck does make a nonelectric valve that you must manually operate from one cycle position of a regeneration to another after correctly timing each position but I doubt you want to do that every week.

So you run electric around the house or live with your water quality problems; or spend $4K!!!

Usually when a softener loop is installed to allow for a softener to be installed later, they usually run ellectric to the location too, so look around the area to make sure you haven't simply not seen a hidden receptacle. And if you have other outside receptacles or outside lights, tap off one of them to this location and run the Romex in conduit to an outside type receptacle and be done with it.

**Wally Hays** · 09-06-2010, 10:46 AM

The why not would be becaues Kinetico holds the patent. That said, though Kinetico is a quality piece of equipment and they function very well indeed, they are pricey and they do lock you into having to get your service from them. (like Culligan) I would suspect that you could hire the best electrician in town to run a circuit for you at a whole lot less expense than going with Kinetico ( sorrry Andy )

**Mastiff** · 09-06-2010, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by Skip Wolverton

I know of no other company that makes a non-electric unit. With a 24 volt system running the electric is very easy and hassle free.

Is low voltage the norm, or will I have to shop for that specifically? Running skinny low voltage wire from my roof would be pretty simple.

**Akpsdvan** · 09-06-2010, 11:42 AM

Most of the units today Fleck wise are either 120 or 24 volt. the 24volt units have an all in one so to speak trans former... but that does not mean that you could not splice in some extra cord or find a transformer to use in its place.

All that you have to look for is 24 volt set up and ask for one with trans former that is not part of the wiring.

**Gary Slusser** · 09-06-2010, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by Wally Hays

The why not would be becaues Kinetico holds the patent. That said, though Kinetico is a quality piece of equipment and they function very well indeed, they are pricey and they do lock you into having to get your service from them. (like Culligan) I would suspect that you could hire the best electrician in town to run a circuit for you at a whole lot less expense than going with Kinetico ( sorrry Andy )

Water power wouldn't be what the patent (1971) was based on, it would be on how they got water power to work. The patent expired a couple decades ago. The guy (Harvey) in England had no problem changing the design to get his new patents which make his 2001 version of Kinetico much better than Kinetico's design.

http://www.harveywatersofteners.co.uk/

The water power nonelectric is a gimmick that isn't needed since most if not all homes etc. have electric where the softener will be installed or an electric line can be run to there. Think about it, no motor or computer, switches, wires and the Kinetico with all its blow molded plastic parts costs SOOOO much more than softeners with all those things. Why is that if not to make the Kinetico dealer and Kinetico more money at the expense of their customers? Kinetico uses the same resins and resin and salt tanks every independent dealer does along with many national brand softeners. Their tanks are just black but made by the same companies.

BTW, Culligan used Fleck 2500 control valves with the name Culligan right in the brass for the first roughly 60 years Culligan was in business. And any dealer that wanted to could rebuild the control valve with stock parts from Fleck. Today the Culligan valves are made in China and/or Mexico but still use a somewhat different version of the Fleck seals and spacers piston design.

**jadnashua** · 09-06-2010, 11:46 AM

It really isn't a big deal to drill a hole in a brick wall. With the right drill and bit, probably five minutes tops (and a lot less normally). You can get a cleaner hole if you use a diamond core bit. Worst case, you rent a core drill. On the other side of the wall, is there any outlet or other existing electrical? I'd expect so, with the requirements on outlet spacing. If it was 24vac, you could install the transformer inside and just make a 1/4" hole or maybe a little larger. Much better than fishing wires through the ceiling and attic (especially in Tucson - wait a few months first!).

Patent protection only lasts so long...Kinetico has been in business for awhile...their patent may no longer be a deterant (I just don't know). Often, if something is just so much better, others will invent a way around it. That doesn't appear to be the case, so, to me anyway, that argument is suspect.

**Gary Slusser** · 09-06-2010, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by Mastiff

Is low voltage the norm, or will I have to shop for that specifically? Running skinny low voltage wire from my roof would be pretty simple.

Due to potential DC voltage drop problems with that, run a 120vac outdoor extension cord and plug the transformer into it at the softener. I'd cut off the extension cord plug and install it to an outside receptacle and pug the transformer into the receptacle and prevent water from getting into it.

Anyone selling Fleck can order the valve with 24vdc.

**Mastiff** · 09-06-2010, 11:53 AM

Yes, I'm liking the idea of getting a low voltage unit with separate transformer. I can plug it in on the roof or inside the house and run it through an existing hole for cable TV.

Now, any thoughts on how to deal with the Tucson sun? I'm mostly concerned about the brine tank cracking every year. Are there options I should consider?

Thanks for the help.

**Gary Slusser** · 09-06-2010, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by Mastiff

Yes, I'm liking the idea of getting a low voltage unit with separate transformer. I can plug it in on the roof or inside the house and run it through an existing hole for cable TV.

Now, any thoughts on how to deal with the Tucson sun? I'm mostly concerned about the brine tank cracking every year. Are there options I should consider?

Thanks for the help.

See my post above.

All salt tanks have a UV inhibitor and last many years out in the sun across the southern US but it would be nice to shade it and keep water off the control valve, or buy an outdoor cover for the valve, and still shad it and the resin tank. You could bury the tank in a piece of corrugated culvert pipe up to like a few inches from the top of the tank.That's so you could get the tank up out if needed in the future without digging.

**jadnashua** · 09-06-2010, 12:07 PM

Unless the tank is going to be on the north side of the house, the water held in the tank will be VERY hot by mid-afternoon, if not sooner for probably at least half of the year in Tucson. Your cold water could get hot enough to scald you. I'd guess that super hot water would mess with the salt dose, too. You sure you really want it outside?

I've said this before, but it demonstates my thought: I lived in Kuwait for awhile. Our water was stored in a large white fiberglass tank on the roof. That water got so hot, we used it for hot for about 8-months out of the year, shut the WH off, so we had a supply of cooler water, and god help you if you ran out of 'cold' in the WH, as then you had hot and hot. Luckily for us, the WH was quite large (cheap energy), and the place air conditioned so the water, even with the tank's insulation, cooled off eventually. You had to warn visitors to get cold, use the hot valve, and hot from the cold side. It got more confusing in the winter when it went back, or the knee seasons, when you didn't know which way to go.