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Thread: Need pump system advise

  1. #1
    DIY Junior Member Fixroy1's Avatar
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    Default Need pump system advise

    I need to supply my house from a cistern 20ft from house and 2ft vertically on a slope. Supplying 1 1/2 bath frequently,and an additional 2 when occasionally family guests are in. The lift from tank base to highest shower head is about 27ft.
    Planning on using multistage centrifugal pump, either a submersible Ebara Multigo 40/06 with max head 128ft and 22 gall/min, or an ESPA Aspri 15/3 with max head 110ft and 17.4 gall/min, or the 15/4 with head =147ft and 17.4 gall/min.
    Controlled by either by;
    1. Automatic electronics pressure/flow controller that turns pump on/off according to demand, or
    2. Pressure tank system with Cycle Stop Valve.
    Cant figure the difference between 1 & 2, are they not doing the same thing. Think I am missing something.
    Efficiency is my major concern. Which setup is best?
    Thanks in advance.
    DIY

  2. #2
    Moderator valveman's Avatar
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    First a pump with a 40/60 pressure switch has to have a max head of 138’ just to shut itself off. Then depending on where it is installed, it may have to make up the other 27’ of head as well, for a total of 165’ of head. So you need a pump that will do about 200’ of head at shut off.

    Most of the electronic tankless devices use flow off and pressure on, without any control of the pressure. So you have max pressure from the pump all the time, and need to be careful of the pump you choose, or you have too much or too little pressure. These devices also do not use a pressure tank. So every time you use a tiny amount of water the pump has to start. This is not that bad until you have a small leak somewhere, and the pump cycles itself to death in a day or two.

    The Cycle Stop Valve regulates constant pressure to the house, works with a small pressure tank for leaks and small usage, and has no electronics to fail.

    But if you want the most efficient system, get a really big pressure tank, so the pump is always running at its most efficient point. With the amount of usage you have, a big tank will probably save you $1 or $2 per month on the electric bill. Efficiency is not as important with small water systems as how long the equipment last. Cycling on and off is what shortens the life and kills most pumps. A Cycle Stop Valve with a small tank, more than offsets its cost compared to a big pressure tank. Eliminating the cycling extends the life of your pump system, and gives you constant pressure in the house. There is more to efficiency than what is on the electric bill.

  3. #3
    General Engineering Contractor ballvalve's Avatar
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    What or where are those unheard of pumps from? Italy or China? Why not find a nice Myers or especially for a cistern look at Pentair S.T.E.P. pumps, a very interesting design with high flow for the wattage. Valveman mentioned these to me and I have not used them, but they are only $259 and motor over the pump for a good cooling scheme. Might have to go 35-55 psi - check the pump curve.

  4. #4
    DIY Junior Member Fixroy1's Avatar
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    Valveman, thanks for a better understanding of the system. I will go with the CSV one and select a suitable pump.

    Ballvalve, most pumps are now made in China, even the major ones. Myers, a part of Pentair Pump Group, I read are made in China also. Will look into the Pentair you recommend too.
    Links for pumps above:www.wisy.de/eng/eng/aspri.htm
    www.aqua-lity.co.uk/index.php?id=15
    Thanks for advise

  5. #5
    General Engineering Contractor ballvalve's Avatar
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    No, most pumps are not made in China incredibly. And the ones that are so identified will be a real crapshoot for you... especially the "motors". Run like the wind. Lets hear from the pump guys here to help you save yourself and our country from the yellow invasion.

    One of your links says "seal of COAL and ceramic" If they put coal in the pump or cannot translate English, I doubt you will ever get a part for this shiny and cute junque. They do say it has "CALM" operation. Nothing like a happy, calm pump in the house! One might be german made- bet its twice the cost of a USA booster pump.

    Look at the STEP pump, which is IN the cistern. Then go to TEK supply, IRA WOODS, DEAN BENNET supply and GRAINGERS to look at booster pumps or multi stage booster pumps. US built and parts in every town. Is this dirty rainwater you are pumping?

    Most myer pumps are made here, of course components can be sourced from all over the earth. Unknown to most Americans that frequent dollar stores, The USA still has the highest Mfg. goods output of any nation by a large percentage. According to the Wall street journal.... good for maybe another few years as things are looking, unless we get a nice world war going.

    You would be better off with a water ace 1 hp submersible with a Franklin motor for 200 bucks on oge-baayy by the hundreds.

    From New York? You probably noticed those towers falling down. Your dollars to keep an American pump plant running is an investment in your own personal safety. That same plant can make Missiles or torpedoes for the next time when Iran pops off a Russian suit case nuclear bomb in times square. Doesnt anyone out there GET these things?

    As a quick example, go to TEK supply and search a on sale USA booster pump for $280. #CLWF4710 You can buy the motor for that in Armpit, Idaho and the impellers will outlast you.
    Last edited by ballvalve; 08-11-2010 at 10:26 AM. Reason: Save America from fiction of Chinese Mfg superiority

  6. #6
    DIY Junior Member Fixroy1's Avatar
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    Ballvalve, thanks for your advise, I will do some more research.

  7. #7
    Moderator valveman's Avatar
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    I believe most small pumps are no longer made in America. Even Franklin motors are made in Mexico and assembled in the US, so they can say made in America when it really isn’t so. Even a lot of the bigger pumps are no longer made in America. The 6” and 8” Centri-pro motors are just Hitachi motors made in Japan and painted blue. And I know many of the castings for larger pumps are made in China.

    Yes, the USA still has the highest Mfg. goods output of any nation by a large percentage. That is because we export large and expensive stuff like jet planes and earth moving equipment. With all the new regulations, taxes, and labor cost, we are not able to manufacturer small components in the US and be competitive. And the good people of California keep making this problem worse with their Prop 65 and ab1953 rules. Lead in plumbing products rarely leaches into the water and has never been a problem. However, after some kids ate the lead paint on toys made in China, some politicians in California have made a name for themselves trying to eliminate lead from any product. Now we have to pay three times as much for products that are the quality and not any safer.

    All that is required for evil to flourish is for good people to do nothing. Nothing is exactly what the good people of California are doing by letting an ex-movie star and a lady with no sense of reality make rules about things they don’t understand. Unfortunately the rest of the country seems to follow what California does. I guess if California politicians can get re-elected claiming to save their constituents from evil corporations and lead poisoning, which distracts people from the real issues, then other politicians will try to do the same.

  8. #8
    General Engineering Contractor ballvalve's Avatar
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    The terminator really didnt have much to do with it. We have hoards of overeducated idiots from beach towns like SAnta Cruz where 90% of the people are "disabled" or live on trusts - they Create these propositions that are foisted on the average guy that does not read them. They look at factories like they were death camps. The 3 line blurb in the voting booth sounds good - preserve health, reduce lead. 20 pages into the book, they discuss "moderate increased costs associated with some industrial items". We here have decided to let the masses rule with hundreds of new laws they have no business discussing.

    Hotels have signs in the halls announcing lead may be present. My backhoe bought at auction from a ex- gov contractor has huge lead warning labels all over it! Absolute imbeciles.
    My mechanical supplier sells me "old" pressure switches in the back corner of his strore room like we are dealing hash. Writes the invoice for plastic pipe. To get an old tank tee, you better do the transaction in the toilet.

    Franklin only went to Mexico because some idiot president decided to give the south americans a huge handout called our industry in nafta. Levis were still made in Texas at a profit until that exact moment. Franklin could have gone to China or worse, but the best worst choice was to try and keep profits up against the flood of crap motors that are starting to come in. At least they can control quality, and likely make sub components here in the USA. Franklin has had Mfg. plants in other parts of the world for a long time, I believe.

    I have several Myers submersible pumps here and they were made here. I would guess those with SS discharge heads might have that part imported, but just a guess. Valveman, you do the pump shows - ask the MFG's at the show about their smaller pumps. One can pretty much tell from the "architecture" of a pump and its packaging as to from where it came from. There is always a nuance that shows foreign involvement.

    Grundfos made my submersible head near here in Fresno, California. Weekly, the Wall street journal has a story of some MFG. that came back from China because of long lead times and shipping and political-control issues. If we can make locomotives, we can make coat hangars! The cheap and great m-53 effluent pumps are made in the USA by Zoeller
    Last edited by ballvalve; 08-12-2010 at 10:26 AM.

  9. #9
    Moderator valveman's Avatar
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    Even made in America doesn’t mean what it did before. Stuff made in the USA has been cheapened up to compete with the imports. And I don’t think “planned obsolescence” was a part of US corporations until the 70’s, now it is the number one priority. If California doesn’t repeal Prop 65 and back off of a bunch of other stupid regulations, we might as well just hand the keys to the Chinese.

  10. #10
    General Engineering Contractor ballvalve's Avatar
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    Certainly our cars are better, if my Ramblers ever saw 75,000 miles before I saw the road through the floor, it was very unusual. The gas tanks usually rotted out on top before 50,000 miles. We taught the Japs to make cars, and then they taught us how to make them last a reasonable length of time. Fair trade. Except that as the spoils of war, Japan would have been and still would be an American possession. The Russians for all their stupidity, were smart enough to hold onto 1/2 of Europe until 1968 - possibly keeping the Germans from starting up their ambitions for dominance again.

    If I lost a leg in Iraq, and then saw our gov. building schools for their kids, and the local American district firing half the teachers for lack of funds, I would deeply regret my contribution. Those oil fields in Iraq should be permanently an American district, and that oil would be our payment for the blood we shed to free them from tyranny. America has had the chance to rule an unruly world fairly many times, but our bleeding hearts gave up our manifest destiny. Now we pay for it with our demise.

    I do not really believe in planned obsolescence in manufacturing of mechanical devices. there are many levels of cost/ quality choices for us. In terms of consumer electronics, we are truly screwed blue by the Asians, who change standards and create obscure operating systems and incoherent standards that no one can decipher - then they stop supporting them every few years so we have to buy this crap all over again.

    California is a mess of good intentions and idiotic laws. It certainly is possible to get a dose of lead from a faucet that water sat in for a few days. Most faucets can use lead if the waterway is lined with plastic, a easy solution. Low lead brass is harder to machine, but certainly is not that much more expensive to produce. Why don't the PRV valve producers simply epoxy coat the interiors of the valves? Machine the small parts from non lead materials. Remember that Rome likely fell because of its great plumbing that poisoned several generations of children.

    The only other stupidity I know of is the diesel engine laws, which can, however also cause a lot of innovation in industry where they would sleep otherwise.
    Last edited by ballvalve; 08-12-2010 at 10:45 PM.

  11. #11
    Porky Cutter,MGWC Porky's Avatar
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    OK guys! Get off the politics and help the DIY person with his/her problem.
    He need to buy a quality standard submersible pump (maybe a Goulds) and a CSV Side-Kick. . . Problem solved.
    Porky Cutter, MGWC
    (Master Ground Water Consultant)

  12. #12
    Moderator valveman's Avatar
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    Coating is a great idea, but it is not good enough for California anymore. One of our valve models is powder coated with an FDA approved coating that will not come off. However, California says coatings might come off, and the Cast Iron underneath has lead in it, so coatings are not acceptable. There are nearly 800 chemicals listed in Prop 65. Yet they make special considerations for lead. So it is OK to switch from leaded brass with 1/2 of a percent of lead, to Stainless Steel, which has 15% chromium, which is also on the list. Chromium oxide is also invisible, so you can't even see it, but it doesn't get any attention and lead gets all the attention. PVC contains DOP, which is also on the list, but again doesn't get the same attention as lead. Even all this doesn't bother me as much as the required third party testing. This increases cost of goods tremendously, and doesn't make them any safer. Third party testing means California assumes you are guilty until you prove yourself innocent. It cost a lot of money for innocent companies to prove they are innocent. This cost consumers a lot of money unnecessarily, and makes it hard for small companies to compete.

    I just hope other states are seeing that California is going broke, it’s education level has plummeted, businesses are leaving in droves, illegal immigrants are taking over, and the whole state is becoming one big entitlement nightmare. Prop 65 is just one of the problems, but it would be a good one to start with if you really want to fix things.

    Rome had solid lead pipes. We are only talking about of 1% lead.

    Here is an interesting quote I found about AB 1953.

    “AB 1953 savings far outweigh the minor costs of the new brass. These implementation costs are expected to be more than offset by savings, estimated at $800 million per year, in health care and special education as well as in higher earnings for non-lead exposed individuals.”

    Unfortunately removing lead from pipe and fittings is not going to increase the intelligence or health of Californians. They are going to have to educate themselves the old fashioned way. With a little education, Californians might figure out that its not lead but, politicians that are poisoning the people.

  13. #13
    General Engineering Contractor ballvalve's Avatar
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    Even the immigrants are leaving. How about texas - I think you have a lot more. But california has an amazing combination of climates - ocean in the morning and skiing in the afternoon, its long term appeal will not stop. Want to kill the propopsition? [and NO humidity] go into a dollar store and test that crap from china - its all full of lead from kids squatting in a field burning computer IC boards. Shut down all the toy stores and the California masses will rise up with machetes against the legislature.

    Why not make the valves with reinforced plastics - seem like the ones I use are great quality, can be machined and cost is not excessive. [Mostly found in AG stores]

    America is going broke because of managments salary - one clown in california got 4.5 million pay in a city of 90 people [grand jury investigating] What about these corps that pay 3 to 5 BILLION to their CEO's? You could build 10 low lead foundries and still have enough to pay him a fair 600,000$ a year with that.

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    DIY Junior Member Fixroy1's Avatar
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    Sorry guys , I did not know that this is a political Forum. I will try to find answer somewhere else. I guess you should change the name.

  15. #15
    General Engineering Contractor ballvalve's Avatar
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    You already got your answer in the beginning at no charge. My mistake and regret to waste my time trying to help your misdirected pump search. Have not seen any additional questions from you about mechanics..... Your comment is fully out of place.

    Sorry to disturb your sense of order, but if you are so narrow minded, you are encouraged to go elsewhere and find the answers that you WANT and have likely pre-determined, not what you need.

    So buy the import pump to enrich a temporary guy in the business of profit at your expense. Dont come here looking for parts when you're washing in bottled water next year.

    Cheers! Now.... let us return to our political forum.
    Last edited by ballvalve; 08-20-2010 at 07:34 AM.

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