Submersible Pump stops - works again after power disconnected

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Ballvalve

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For a weekender with such low flow, probably dont need the CSV now. You want a diaphragm tank, such as Goulds or Amtrol. Bladder tanks just do not work. Made a culvert with my junk ones before getting smarter. Just bought a Goulds 85 gallon for $365.... call all the pump guys in the book and get a quote. Times are tough and prices are down. Too big to ship.

Take a look at Franklins pumpsaver they are likely on the same links that Valveman posted.
 

Valveman

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Actually a CSV can be just as important on a low producing well as a high producing well. A pressure tank is just another load for the pump to fill after it has been supplying water to the house. So I have seen many times that a low producing well would supply water to the house, then pump dry before the big pressure tank got full. You can still use a large pressure tank with a CSV is you want, and the CSV will refill the tank at 1 GPM, so the well doesn’t pump dry while filling the tank.

Big pressure tanks don’t really help much with low producing wells, because you can’t make sure the tank is full every time you start to use water. With a 40/60 pressure switch, the tank could be full and at 60 PSI, or it could be almost empty at 41 PSI, when you turn on a faucet. You have a 50-50 chance either way. And Murphy’s Law says it will always be at 41 PSI when you need water. Now not only does the pump have to supply water directly to the shower when needed, it has to refill the 25 gallons in the 80 gallon pressure tank, after you turn off the shower. So the tank is just an additional load on an already low producing well, that may not have 25 gallons remaining.

The CSV is one reason why large pressure tanks are getting cheaper, because they are not needed any longer. A $90 CSV and a $100 tank (not to big to ship) will do things that six large tanks can’t do, which is stop the pump from cycling. More or bigger tanks just slow down the cycling, they don’t stop it. I agree diaphragm tanks are better than bladder tanks, but even bladder tanks will last longer with a CSV, because the bladder is not (cycling) or being used very much.

I also prefer the Cycle Sensor to any of the pump savers available. For one thing they have proven to be more dependable. For another, other pump savers don’t work well with a CSV. When a 1 HP pump is working with a CSV, other pump savers see the amps drop from 9 to 5 amps, and thinks the well is dry, shutting off the pump. The CSV is what makes a 1 HP pump drop from 9 to 5 amps, the well is not dry. The Cycle Sensor can be adjusted to any amp setting, so when set at 4.5 amps, it knows the difference between low flow and no flow on the 1 HP pump.

I always used as large a tank as the customer could afford or that would fit, until I realized there is a better way. After an installer starts using Cycle Stop Valves, he soon realizes that almost every application can benefit from one.

Oh I still use 80 gallon pressure tanks. But only on bigger pumps with bigger CSV’s that produce between 1,000 and 5,000 GPM.
 

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Thanks Ballvalve,
The guy who dug the well said he would sell me a diaphragm tank for his cost 225 or so.
But I am not sure which way to go..I am intrigued by the csv setup.

Valveman,
Could you give me the CSV and tank that would best suit my needs in this situation?
3 GPM - 131 ft well 155 static level - 126 in 1 hour
I understand you sell these things and I am not sure what sort of understanding there is with this board.
I looked at your site and I am just not certain about the tank.
Thanks
 
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Ballvalve

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If you are planning to build a house there, you will need a 1 to 3,000 gallon tank and an infeed set to 2 or 3 GPM by a dole valve or similiar restrictor. The outfeed pump of that tank would then feed your pressure tank with or without a CSV. I think if you irrigate, the CSV is great, but if you are a 9 to 5 type family, you can likely get by with a pressure tank alone.

I find it a very difficult equation to determine if the reduced cost of a tiny pressure tank makes up for the electric cost of extended run time of the CSV. Then you must add in the possible [probable] extended pump life from reduced cycling. Certainly the CSV is superior to any so called constant pressure system on the market now.

In my testing I have not been able to get a pump to drop from 9 amps to 5 amps even in a no flow condition, although valveman tells me that the internal design of the pump is important for such a amperage drop. I may have tested the wrong type of impeller stack design.

I operate several wells, and do not have any CSV valves, and typically get 10 to 20 years of use from them IF the pressure tank is MAINTAINED and sized correctly. But then I am able to tweak and adjust my pressure switches to keep the pump running during peak use.

Maybe when I get a bit older and stiffer, I will try some CSV's, which take the thought and work out of the adjustments.
 

Valveman

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I agree you need a storage tank and booster pump. Then the CSV goes on the booster pump with a 4.4 gallon size pressure tank. You can always "get by" without a CSV. But why would you want to do that when the CSV solves most of the problems that pump installers have been trying to solve for decades. Most people are not able to tweak and adjust things to keep the pump running. Most people don't even know how to "work out" the adjustments or even what makes a pump last. My 2 HP Grundfos drops from 12 to 5 amps, just need to look for a pump that will do that. For every person who says they usually get 10 or 20 years from their pump, there are just as many people who only get 1 or 2 years. So the average pump is still lasting 7 years. I was told this by a Franklin engineer long before they knew not to tell people these things. Why wait to get "older and stiffer"? You can't learn something new any younger than you are now. Everybody says they don't know why they waited so long to try a CSV. They say they should have been using them all along. If you don't run many small zones, the CSV can actually decrease the electric bill by keeping the pump from rapid cycling. If all you ever run is a house, the extended run time caused by the CSV adds up to about 2 dollars a month. An extra 24 bucks a year to make your pump last three times longer than normal is pretty cheap insurance. And that is after saving a couple hundred bucks on a big pressure tank.
 

Blitzen

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Thanks guys,
I am not sure if I completely understand the options but let me see if this is correct...
So the options are to:

1- Have the 3/4 hp pump and put a 3 gallon dole valve between it and a diaphragm pressure tank and then out to the house

2- Have a 3/4 hp pump and put a 3 gallon dole valve between it and a storage tank, connect to that a booster pump and to that connect a csv and a 4.4Gal pressure tank and that then connects to the house.

3- Have a 3/4 hp pump and put a 3 gallon dole valve between it and a diaphragm pressure tank and that will be connected to a storage tank and then have a booster pump with a csv with a 4.4 tank attached to that supply my water needs?

The last one does not seem right but I am not sure...my brain is slowly frying :) BUT I really appreciate the information!

I am going to to make the best of this situation...going from thinking I have a strong well with a 2hp pump to a low producing well has taken a bit of adjusting. I like the idea of new and possibly better ways of doing things so I am interested in the csv way...but simple is always good too...just not sure if I get it yet.
Thanks,
blitzen
 

Valveman

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Number 2 is really the only viable option. With numbers 1 and 3, you are limited by the 3 GPM Dole valve. Anytime the house uses more than 3 GPM, the pressure will drop to nothing.
 
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