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Thread: Submersible Pump stops - works again after power disconnected

  1. #16
    General Engineering Contractor ballvalve's Avatar
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    I would guess you have a 3/4 hp pump also, or a very foolish installer of a 2 hp pump. You need the correct box for the pump, thats a certainty.

  2. #17
    DIY Junior Member Blitzen's Avatar
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    Thanks ballvalve for all of time you spend answering these questions. You are a great help!!!

    blitzen

  3. #18
    DIY Junior Member Blitzen's Avatar
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    I figured I would update this post and get anyone's thoughts on the subject.

    Before replacing the 3/4hp control box with a 2hp control box for the 2hp pump, I tested the starting and runnng resistance.
    They were 12.1 and 3.6 roughly which is what the AIM Manuel said were for a 3/4 hp pump. SO this was surprising.
    The well information that came with the house said it was a 2hp pump.
    I went to the dept. of Ecology website and looked up well information in my area and found paperwork for my well and my neighbor's well, both were dug by the same guy.
    My well had a 3/4 pump and my neighbors had a 2 hp pump. My well had an air test done (3 gpm/ 126 feet/ 1 hour).
    I have no idea why I was given my neighbors paperwork.

    I decided to recheck the well, pipes, pressure tank thoroughly and found that the 1 1/4 pipe connection at the well was barely even connected.
    I literally pulled the threaded out without twisting it. This would explain all the bubble sounds I heard when the pump kicked in.
    It would explain the difficulty it had with developing enough pressure.
    The I went to the pressure tank and discovered it was waterlogged.
    I was able to get it out of the pump house and unscrew the air intake valve and drain it.
    I then pulled the bladder out of the bottom to see if
    had an obvious tear. I haven't found one yet.
    The bladder was covered both inside and outside by lots or rust and black goo.
    I have no idea what the black stuff is. Pulling a bladder was like delivering a calf or something (lol) very slimey.

    SO I
    1- installed a check valve at the top of the well
    2- Ran 300 feet of 1 inch pipe up to the pump house
    3- Replaced the 85 Gallon pressure tank with one that is 50 gallons
    4- Installed a ball valve on th eoutgoing side of the tank to experiment with water flow.
    5- Installed a pressure valve that cuts out at low pressure

    I turned it on and was amazed at how quite everything was.
    I filled 20 5 gallon water jugs up before it lost pressure and went below 28psi.
    I closed the ball valve quite a bit which lowered my pressure at the hose but th epump seemed to be able to keep up
    with as much watering as I wanted the rest of the day.

    If anyone has any suggestions or ideas I would love to hear them...especially concerning drawdow and flow as it seems I have a low producing well.

    Here are the two well reports. The first one is the paperwork that actually goes to my well.
    The second one is the paperwork I was given when I bought the property.



    *


  4. #19
    General Engineering Contractor ballvalve's Avatar
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    Thanks for the feedback. Your well is a low producer and might not be enough for some lenders. Your neighbors report would look a lot better to a buyer, so you might have had an accidental on purpose agents mistake. Be glad you got the 3/4 hp pump, otherwise that well would be sucked dry quick.

    Sounds like you are good to go - good detective work. Others here might object to the checkvalve at the well head, but I use them too.

    The low pressure cut out switch usually works fine, especially for weekenders. But a pumpsaver is a good but expensive back up.

    I birthed a few of those nasty calves too, then started buying better bladder tanks. Never will open one again.
    Last edited by ballvalve; 08-31-2010 at 06:57 AM.

  5. #20
    DIY Junior Member Blitzen's Avatar
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    Well "accidental on purpose" would totally be par for the course considering all the other things that took place from the realtor..but that is another story.

    Is that the pumpsaver plus by symcom I see on the web?

    Would the cyclestop valve be worth looking into as well?

    I have been looking at the cyclestop site and it has a lot of good information, I am just not sure if it is something that would help.

    One last thing...where would I buy a better bladder tank?

    Thanks ballvalve.

  6. #21
    General Engineering Contractor ballvalve's Avatar
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    For a weekender with such low flow, probably dont need the CSV now. You want a diaphragm tank, such as Goulds or Amtrol. Bladder tanks just do not work. Made a culvert with my junk ones before getting smarter. Just bought a Goulds 85 gallon for $365.... call all the pump guys in the book and get a quote. Times are tough and prices are down. Too big to ship.

    Take a look at Franklins pumpsaver[s] they are likely on the same links that Valveman posted.

  7. #22
    Moderator valveman's Avatar
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    Actually a CSV can be just as important on a low producing well as a high producing well. A pressure tank is just another load for the pump to fill after it has been supplying water to the house. So I have seen many times that a low producing well would supply water to the house, then pump dry before the big pressure tank got full. You can still use a large pressure tank with a CSV is you want, and the CSV will refill the tank at 1 GPM, so the well doesn’t pump dry while filling the tank.

    Big pressure tanks don’t really help much with low producing wells, because you can’t make sure the tank is full every time you start to use water. With a 40/60 pressure switch, the tank could be full and at 60 PSI, or it could be almost empty at 41 PSI, when you turn on a faucet. You have a 50-50 chance either way. And Murphy’s Law says it will always be at 41 PSI when you need water. Now not only does the pump have to supply water directly to the shower when needed, it has to refill the 25 gallons in the 80 gallon pressure tank, after you turn off the shower. So the tank is just an additional load on an already low producing well, that may not have 25 gallons remaining.

    The CSV is one reason why large pressure tanks are getting cheaper, because they are not needed any longer. A $90 CSV and a $100 tank (not to big to ship) will do things that six large tanks can’t do, which is stop the pump from cycling. More or bigger tanks just slow down the cycling, they don’t stop it. I agree diaphragm tanks are better than bladder tanks, but even bladder tanks will last longer with a CSV, because the bladder is not (cycling) or being used very much.

    I also prefer the Cycle Sensor to any of the pump savers available. For one thing they have proven to be more dependable. For another, other pump savers don’t work well with a CSV. When a 1 HP pump is working with a CSV, other pump savers see the amps drop from 9 to 5 amps, and thinks the well is dry, shutting off the pump. The CSV is what makes a 1 HP pump drop from 9 to 5 amps, the well is not dry. The Cycle Sensor can be adjusted to any amp setting, so when set at 4.5 amps, it knows the difference between low flow and no flow on the 1 HP pump.

    I always used as large a tank as the customer could afford or that would fit, until I realized there is a better way. After an installer starts using Cycle Stop Valves, he soon realizes that almost every application can benefit from one.

    Oh I still use 80 gallon pressure tanks. But only on bigger pumps with bigger CSV’s that produce between 1,000 and 5,000 GPM.

  8. #23
    DIY Junior Member Blitzen's Avatar
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    Thanks Ballvalve,
    The guy who dug the well said he would sell me a diaphragm tank for his cost 225 or so.
    But I am not sure which way to go..I am intrigued by the csv setup.

    Valveman,
    Could you give me the CSV and tank that would best suit my needs in this situation?
    3 GPM - 131 ft well 155 static level - 126 in 1 hour
    I understand you sell these things and I am not sure what sort of understanding there is with this board.
    I looked at your site and I am just not certain about the tank.
    Thanks
    Last edited by Blitzen; 09-01-2010 at 06:23 PM.

  9. #24
    General Engineering Contractor ballvalve's Avatar
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    If you are planning to build a house there, you will need a 1 to 3,000 gallon tank and an infeed set to 2 or 3 GPM by a dole valve or similiar restrictor. The outfeed pump of that tank would then feed your pressure tank with or without a CSV. I think if you irrigate, the CSV is great, but if you are a 9 to 5 type family, you can likely get by with a pressure tank alone.

    I find it a very difficult equation to determine if the reduced cost of a tiny pressure tank makes up for the electric cost of extended run time of the CSV. Then you must add in the possible [probable] extended pump life from reduced cycling. Certainly the CSV is superior to any so called constant pressure system on the market now.

    In my testing I have not been able to get a pump to drop from 9 amps to 5 amps even in a no flow condition, although valveman tells me that the internal design of the pump is important for such a amperage drop. I may have tested the wrong type of impeller stack design.

    I operate several wells, and do not have any CSV valves, and typically get 10 to 20 years of use from them IF the pressure tank is MAINTAINED and sized correctly. But then I am able to tweak and adjust my pressure switches to keep the pump running during peak use.

    Maybe when I get a bit older and stiffer, I will try some CSV's, which take the thought and work out of the adjustments.

  10. #25
    Moderator valveman's Avatar
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    I agree you need a storage tank and booster pump. Then the CSV goes on the booster pump with a 4.4 gallon size pressure tank. You can always "get by" without a CSV. But why would you want to do that when the CSV solves most of the problems that pump installers have been trying to solve for decades. Most people are not able to tweak and adjust things to keep the pump running. Most people don't even know how to "work out" the adjustments or even what makes a pump last. My 2 HP Grundfos drops from 12 to 5 amps, just need to look for a pump that will do that. For every person who says they usually get 10 or 20 years from their pump, there are just as many people who only get 1 or 2 years. So the average pump is still lasting 7 years. I was told this by a Franklin engineer long before they knew not to tell people these things. Why wait to get "older and stiffer"? You can't learn something new any younger than you are now. Everybody says they don't know why they waited so long to try a CSV. They say they should have been using them all along. If you don't run many small zones, the CSV can actually decrease the electric bill by keeping the pump from rapid cycling. If all you ever run is a house, the extended run time caused by the CSV adds up to about 2 dollars a month. An extra 24 bucks a year to make your pump last three times longer than normal is pretty cheap insurance. And that is after saving a couple hundred bucks on a big pressure tank.

  11. #26
    DIY Junior Member Blitzen's Avatar
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    Thanks guys,
    I am not sure if I completely understand the options but let me see if this is correct...
    So the options are to:

    1- Have the 3/4 hp pump and put a 3 gallon dole valve between it and a diaphragm pressure tank and then out to the house

    2- Have a 3/4 hp pump and put a 3 gallon dole valve between it and a storage tank, connect to that a booster pump and to that connect a csv and a 4.4Gal pressure tank and that then connects to the house.

    3- Have a 3/4 hp pump and put a 3 gallon dole valve between it and a diaphragm pressure tank and that will be connected to a storage tank and then have a booster pump with a csv with a 4.4 tank attached to that supply my water needs?

    The last one does not seem right but I am not sure...my brain is slowly frying BUT I really appreciate the information!

    I am going to to make the best of this situation...going from thinking I have a strong well with a 2hp pump to a low producing well has taken a bit of adjusting. I like the idea of new and possibly better ways of doing things so I am interested in the csv way...but simple is always good too...just not sure if I get it yet.
    Thanks,
    blitzen

  12. #27
    Moderator valveman's Avatar
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    Number 2 is really the only viable option. With numbers 1 and 3, you are limited by the 3 GPM Dole valve. Anytime the house uses more than 3 GPM, the pressure will drop to nothing.

  13. #28
    DIY Junior Member Blitzen's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Thanks Valveman and Ballvalve...you guys are a huge asset here. Thanks for the education!

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