Drainage layout and advice for Horse Barn

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hagler

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Hello everyone….I’m looking for some help with running some drain pipe throughout a new horse barn that has just been framed out. I’ve attached a rough sketch…very rough, but hopefully you can get the idea. There are 6 horse stalls with drains in them and 4 drains spaced out in the main aisle. I also want to add a sink in the tack room. I’m a novice when it comes to plumbing – I can tackle any task, but as far as materials and layout for this project, I need some help. I am going to be pouring a 4†concrete floor over the entire area. The drains will tie together (as shown in the drawing) and drain to a dry well.
My questions are:

- What size pipe do I need to use for each of the drains and what type of material? – PVC?
- Do I need the drains before I pour the concrete so I can attach them (without the grates of course) to the top of each pipe coming up to be flush with the floor?
- I’m going to pitch the drain pipes ¼†per foot --- correct?
- These pipes just need to be under the ground and then pitched to whatever depth they are at the end of the run---correct? They do not have to start at a certain depth, do they?
- For the trenches  some kind of paper material, then gravel, lay the pipe, then gravel on top???
- What is the best fitting to use to tie in each drain pipe to the main line?
- For the sink  I will most likely be purchasing an electric hot water heater…how do I run the lines from the water heater to the sink? – under or above ground?
- The barn is not insulated or heated…how will the water lines for the sink not freeze in the cold weather? – Is there a way to specifically avoid this with a sink in the barn?
- What size pipe is best to run to the sink for water lines? And should I use copper or pex?
- 2†drain pipe for the sink I assume? And does the 2†pipe just tie into the main drain line or do I need to transition to the size of the main pipe? And obviously I don’t need to vent this pipe as there is not a septic system in the barn – correct?
- Sorry for so many questions, but this will be a great help to me to get this started.
Thanks in advance!
 

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Terry

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You will need to vent this pipes, regardless of whether there is a septic tank or not, you do have a lot of pipe that is going to get very smelly.
Or are you saying that the horses won't be peeing or pooping in the barn. And even then, that amount of pipe is going to be smelling pretty badly on it's own anyway.
Where is the drain going?
It would be a shame to pour concrete over all those drains and pipes and not have any provision for the smells that happen inside pipes. So easy before the pour, so bad after the pour.

Each drain will need a p-trap and each p-trap will need a vent.






Combination Waste and Vent System -




A specially designed system of waste piping embodying the horizontal wet venting of one or more sinks or floor drains by means of a comrri.on waste and vent pipe, adequately sized to provide free movement of air above the flow line of the drain.

Combination Waste and Vent System
If you make the main drain overly large, you can get by with fewer vents. That would mean running 4" pipe for the entire project and using 4x2 Wye's to pick up the floor drains. The 4" would need a vent on the far end before the last p-trap.
Vents can be run up walls or posts up through the roof.

The water supply lines should be underground as much as possible to prevent freezing.
You may want to use copper lines and heat tape, and then hope that you don't loose power.
In this situation, I prefer to heat the outside structure and not the pipes; trapping whatever heat you have around the enclosure for the pipes, even if that means a small kitchen or room for the sink and it's plumbing. The ground will retain some heat, and then you have live animals in the barn, that produce some heat.

You will need end of the line cleanouts.

910.0 Combination Waste and Vent Systems.

910.1
Combination waste and vent systems shall be

permitted only where structural conditions preclude
the installation of conventional systems as otherwise
prescribed by this code.
910.2


Plans and specifications for each combination

waste and vent system shall first be approved by the
Authority Having Jurisdiction before any portion of
any such system is installed.
910.3


Each combination waste and vent system, as

defined in Chapter 2, shall be provided with a vent

or vents adequate to ensure free circulation of air.

910.3 - 910.7



Any branch more than fifteen

(15) feet (4,572 mm)
in length shall be separately vented in an approved
manner. The minimum area of any vent installed in
a combination waste and vent system shall be at
least one-half

(1/2) the inside cross-sectional area
of the drain pipe served. The vent connection shall
be downstream of the uppermost fixture.


910.4
Each waste pipe and each trap in any such
system shall be at least two (2) pipe sizes larger than
the sizes required by Chapter

7 of this code, and at
least two

(2) pipe sizes larger than any fixture
tailpiece or connection.


910.5
No vertical waste pipe shall be used in any
such system, except the tailpiece or connection
between the outlet of a plumbing fixture and the
trap. Such tailpieces or connections shall be as short
as possible, and in no case shall exceed two

(2) feet

(610mm)


 
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hagler

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The drain is going to a dry well that will be dug out at the ends of these drains...

Th horse's stalls are mucked every day and the pee and poop is cleaned out of the stalls....there is bedding in the stalls that will pick up most of the urine and the poop is cleaned out into a bucket.
The stalls are only washed down once a year unless there is rare, extreme uncleanliness of the stall....so, really there isn't much going down these drains that will be smelly....also, if we're not washing the stalls down, the drains are covered with a removable tile the entire time....???? Do I still need to vent?...most horse barns I've been in do not have vents...I don't think I've seen this in any of them?

(If I do need to vent, are you saying I can get away with only one vent if I run 4" pipe the entire way?)

For the pipes to the sink, do you mean that I have to heat a specific room in some way or another where the sink would be -- this is best?

Thanks for the reply.
 
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hj

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Unless it is JUST water going down the drains the dry wells WILL fill up with debris eventually. In addition, without ANY vents, the system will be "sealed" which means that since air CANNOT escape, the water CANNOT get in to the pipe and you will have a poor draining installation. Your system has to be more than just some pipes stuck in the ground with drains on the ends of them.
 

Terry

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Any branch more then 15 feet or longer shall be separately vented in an approved manner.

I think your system will be much longer then 15 feet.
I realize that you have seen lot's of lousy plumbing in your day. But if you're asking "plumbers" what is correct, it will be different then what the "drunk down the street" has done.


Now I know that the drunk down the street has all the answers, but you gotta ask yourself, what are the drunks qualifications?
Did the drunk pull a permit?
Did the drunk apprentice out for 8,000 hours before taking his certification test?
Has the Drunk ever installed a job that was inspected and passed off?
Or does the Drunk just bootleg the plumbing in?


I see plumbing like your horse barn all the time in third world countries. I ask they why they did such bad plumbing?

"Simple, just copy the plumbing next door."

Yeah, just copy the drunk down the streets "great" idea about plumbing. I'm sure the drunk gave it a lot of thought.
The last time I was in Guatemala, I couldn't fix the smelly kitchen sink. It condo was beautiful, nice tile everywhere, bidets in the bathrooms, but Gawd awful smells in the kitchen. As nice as it was, the plumbing in the walls and under the concrete was still third world.

Helpful Plumbing Hints for Residential Construction by Bert Polk Plumbing Inspector Lincoln County
 
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hagler

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Ok...LOL.....I will not listen to the "drunk"
Thanks for the link to the tips- helpful.

If I go with 4" or even 6" for the main line, I can have only 1 vent on each side of my system at the end before the last p-trap?
Can I tie these 2 vents together in the loft space (attic) before venting through the roof?
What size vent pipe?

Do I also need a small vent for the sink? what size?

For the underground--> drain - then p-trap - then 4x2 wye into the main line?
The p-trap is slightly pitched or level and then pitched down to the wye? how does that work?

Also, the cleanouts would go right before the dry well? and is a pipe run up to ground level for these?
 

Terry

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If I go with 4" or even 6" for the main line, I can have only 1 vent on each side of my system at the end before the last p-trap?
Can I tie these 2 vents together in the loft space (attic) before venting through the roof?
What size vent pipe?

I have only done one circuit vent, it was for meat cases in a Supermarket.
I believe it was one vent before it left the building, or at the lower end, and one vent before the last or upper fixture.
I vented those with 2", and normally with a 4" system, you would have either one 4" vent, or four 2" vents.
I would consider using four 2" vents in your case.
I notice that Japan uses circuit venting.

Do I also need a small vent for the sink? what size?

The sink vent can be 1.5"

For the underground--> drain - then p-trap - then 4x2 wye into the main line?
The p-trap is slightly pitched or level and then pitched down to the wye? how does that work?

floor drain dumps into p-trap, then arms over to the 4" line using wye fittings.

Cleanouts would go on the end or upper end of the line, that way you clear and snake the entire line.
Cleanouts every 135 degree of change, so you see why we love using our 45 wyes. Those changes of direction can add up.
You also have a cleanout that is outside the foundation for the line outside the foundation.

A circuit vent is normally discussed and talked over with a plumbing inspector before any work is done. They may want vents on each fixture.
 
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hagler

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Just to get this straight, where would you place the vents on each side...If I use two 2" vents on each side of this system, I assume 1 at the far end before the last p-trap like you said, but where would I place the first one on each side?

Also, am I using a 4x2 Wye to run the vent pipe from the main line?

For the cleanouts you speak of, how do I actually bring this up to ground level for the line inside the barn? Do I need to bring it up through the concrete and pour around it? or am I running pipe and bringing the cleanout to just below ground level OUTSIDE of the barn where no concrete is being poured?

I appreciate your time on this. Please forgive me if I'm asking novice questions!
 
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Terry

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The cleanout can be on the vent. That's where I like to put them.
The cleanout should be the same size and the pipe, then vent can reduce in size once you are past the cleanout, if you have enough vents to total the area leaving the building.
Then end vent with cleanout would be before the upper trap.
When I did the Supermarket, they had me put a vent in below the lower trap too. And of course for this to work, the pipe is oversized to allow venting over the flow of the water.
 

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hagler

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We plan on finishing off the inside of the barn with tongue & groove walls --- in order to access the cleanouts, do you typically install an access panel in the wall? or how would you set it up to get to the cleanout?

Also, looking at my rough sketch in my initial post, am I able to tie together the entire system and just run pipe to drain into a dry well on the left side of the barn? I think it's better than having to drain into two separate dry wells - agree?
If I do this, can I still have only ONE vent with a cleanout at each upper end before the first p-trap on each side? Would this be OK with 4" pipe or do I need to go to 6" pipe?
 

Inspektor Ludwig

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Well, first things first, according to the New York State plumbing code any plumbing fixture that is installed is required to go to public sanitary or septic system. I've also read that certain parts of the state actually encourage the use of dry wells for grey water but horse manure is not considered grey therefore you wouldn't be able to run it into a dry well or seepage pit without pre-treatment aka a septic tank. I would call your local Building Dept. and ask if they'll allow it. It's not so much horse poo per se, but the constant water running down with the horse poo will create problems. I'm not sure how "green" New York is but I do know that most governments do not like any kind of feces sitting in an open pit with possible contamination of the water table or wells. That's a big no no where I'm at. Ask the inspector when he comes out, he'll let you know. God knows I hate to see a perfectly good concrete slab get broken up, I shed a tear every time.
 

hagler

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I understand....but here's what happens in the horse barn: the drains are covered by tiles the entire time during everyday use. There is always a layer of shavings (bedding) in every stall that picks up the urine (these shavings are constantly disposed of and replaced as needed) and the feces are scooped out of the stalls everyday twice a day----so, nothing is going down the drain (which is covered) at any time. Once a year (twice at the most) we strip the stall - remove the bedding and anything else in the stall- and then spray down the stall. The water either goes out the dutch door which leads to the outside of the barn (these are in every stall) or it goes down the drain (now is the time when we remove the tile covering the drain)....so, really this is just "grey water". There is never any constant flow of water going down these drains---they are covered all of the time.
 

NHmaster3015

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Technically, since the floors have soaked in urine and horse crap, when you wash them down, that mess all ends up in the drain making it waste not gray water. Besides which, I doubt that you can legally get away with a dry well either. Farm waste is one of the things responsible for codes that keep a big separation from the barn yard and wells and such.
 

Furd

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If you are only going to use this drainage system once or twice a year I think you would be far better off saving the time, expense and potential problems by just investing in an industrial quality wet vacuum. You would probably want one with a 55 gallon drum.
 

hagler

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With such little use, and with it being mostly just some water, any problem with just piping down directly from each drain (opening with a grate installed) into some king of hole that I dig with some heavier rocks in the hole (rip-rap)?......for just a few times a year?
 

Ballvalve

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I built a 100' long wine cave, I formed a full length center drain trough that can take closed plates or grates of any design. Everything slopes to the center and can be hosed down clean at will. One trap at the low end. [center actually] The outlet can go to a septic tank and leach field or depending how beloved you are of "big brainless brother government" or how heavy a use you anticipate, to a leachpit or a run of septic chambers.

These drain troughs are available ready made for parking lots and barns and winerys, and are insanely expensive... though the forms with proper pitch are no piece of cake either.

Around here plumber guys, commercial floor traps require a water make up system - automatic - huge money for infitesimal results. No wonder why the laws make the average guy into a criminal.

In my Eastern European 2nd world country, we know that when a trap in a winery stinks, it might need a little hose work. Americans are assumed too stupid for that.

Pave the damn barn in those open core pavers and fill it with pea gravel. The whole place is now a drain into natural mother earth, worked for the past several thousand years. No vents, no water make up, no pipe and no imbecile investigators [inspectors] on the property.
 

hagler

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I am actually looking into this...been doing a ton of research. Funny that you mentioned the idea!
There's a product called HoofGrid for horse stalls (an open core design). Installation: 4" of clean, crushed gravel directly on top of natural ground--then the HoofGrids ($2.99/sq. ft.) are placed on top of this --- then fill with pea gravel --- then place bedding (shavings) on top (about 4"). Now any urine or water drains into "natural mother earth" as you say.
This seems like the way I will probably go.

Thanks for all of the help on this - you guys have been extremely helpful!
 

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Ballvalve

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For 2.99$ a foot, you better have a great bunch of horses. You can pour a slab for 4$ a foot here. If you have 4" of shavings or chips, seems like a "X" cement paver would work as well and be less than buck a foot. Easier to clean with a shovel as their is more flat surface area. There is probably something NOT made for horses that is similar and would cost less. maybe some sort of Geo-grid product?

Perhaps you are using these in strips only in certain area, then the cost makes sense.
 
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