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Thread: A few Fleck valve questions and sizing help

  1. #1

    Default A few Fleck valve questions and sizing help

    Since Clack does not want to do business, I am now researching Fleck Valves and have a couple of questions.

    Are all Fleck 5600 valves capable of Upflow regeneration?

    How much better is upflow regeneration and is it worth the cost?

    Is it important to specify USA made Resin? (standard size)

    Is a particulate filter before the softner wise if water pressure is good.

    Regarding Sizing: 2 people, 2 bath home. SFR of 12 gpm (Bucket test). 15 gpg and no iron on city water. I am thinking 32000 grain would be an adequate size without being too big.

    Thanks for the answers.

  2. #2
    In the Trades Akpsdvan's Avatar
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    There is an upflow 5600.

    Why upflow?

    upflow only really goods good if the resin bed stays packed when in brine flow, if there is any way for the media to move it will, thus making the up flow not as good.

    The only up flow that I have seen work 100% is the Hague Water Max because of the way the tank is done..

    If you can get the USA resin great..

    Pre Filter if there is nothing in the water for it to remove would be a wast of money.

    You should be looking for a unit with 1.5 cubic feet of resin and useing 9 lbs of salt on the cleaning cycle.

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by tmp9a59 View Post
    Since Clack does not want to do business, I am now researching Fleck Valves and have a couple of questions.

    Are all Fleck 5600 valves capable of Upflow regeneration?
    No.

    How much better is upflow regeneration and is it worth the cost?
    With upflow, the brine will past the lower portion of resin that is not exhausted which can save on salt. The downside, it has a higher hardness bleed through than down flow. I have always prefered downflow. Salt is cheap.

    Is it important to specify USA made Resin? (standard size)
    I like the Ionac C249

    Is a particulate filter before the softner wise if water pressure is good.
    It will help but then you are a slave to maintaining the filter. The softener will take out some of the sediment. I would be thinking about how to remove the chlorine. It gives the water a bad chemical taste.

    Regarding Sizing: 2 people, 2 bath home. SFR of 12 gpm (Bucket test). 15 gpg and no iron on city water. I am thinking 32000 grain would be an adequate size without being too big. That would be fine. I sell a lot of 1 cu ft softeners with .5 cu ft carbon. People love it because it makes the water taste good and softens without the cost of another unit.

    Thanks for the answers.
    How much chlorine is in your water?

  4. #4

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    Per the Pinellas County Water Confidence report, 3.3 PPM chlorine.

    I have a high quality charcoal filter for my drinking water needs, so a whole house charcoal filter is not necessary.
    Last edited by tmp9a59; 07-22-2010 at 03:36 PM.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by tmp9a59 View Post
    Per the Pinellas County Water Confidence report, 3.3 PPM chlorine.

    I have a high quality charcoal filter for my drinking water needs, so a whole house charcoal filter is not necessary.
    That's good. But what about your clothes? With that much chlorine surely they will fade from the high chlorine. Your skin also absorbs the chlorine in the shower. Don't get me wrong. I believe in chlorination, but once it enters the home, it can be removed and the water remain safe. Chlorine damages so many different things....rubber o rings, toilet flappers, clothes, resin and much more. Just food for thought.

  6. #6
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tmp9a59 View Post
    Since Clack does not want to do business, I am now researching Fleck Valves and have a couple of questions.

    Are all Fleck 5600 valves capable of Upflow regeneration?

    How much better is upflow regeneration and is it worth the cost?
    Yes dealers that know what they are doing can order any 5600 softener control valve in upflow/counter-current configuration. Although it is not a good idea and you don't need upflow in residential softening so don't buy it.

    Quote Originally Posted by tmp9a59 View Post
    Is it important to specify USA made Resin? (standard size)

    Is a particulate filter before the softner wise if water pressure is good.
    No prefilter with Fleck or Autotrol control valves. A prefilter reduces flow/pressure during regeneration and that prevents the unit from getting rid of all the 'sediment' the resin has filtered out of the water, which leads to failed resin.

    Quote Originally Posted by tmp9a59 View Post
    Regarding Sizing: 2 people, 2 bath home. SFR of 12 gpm (Bucket test). 15 gpg and no iron on city water. I am thinking 32000 grain would be an adequate size without being too big.
    Measuring water flow at a fixture DOES NOT tell you the SFR size of the softener. It does not tell you your peak demand flow rate either. It tells you the flow rate of THAT FIXTURE only.

    The softener's constant SFR gpm is a function of and controlled by only the cubic foot volume of resin in the softener.

    If your peak demand gpm, a total gpm of all the water being used at the same time and running through the softener, is higher than the SFR gpm of the volume of resin, you get hardness through the softener every time your flow is higher than the SFR gpm of the volume of resin. And that means that your softener is undersized.

    A 2 to 2.5 bathroom house with no big tubs or showers usually can not flow more than 12 gpm. A 1.5 cuft softener has a 12 gpm SFR. A 1.5 cuft softener is called a '48K' but, you can't get 48K regenerated capacity, the max with regular mesh resin is 45K. To get 45K you must use 22.5 lbs of salt per regeneration. That is a 2000 grain per lb efficiency, which is the worst you can get (45000/22.5 = 2000).

    Every softener in the world has an adjustable K of capacity. It is controlled/dictated by the cuft volume of resin in the tank and the number of lbs of salt used to regenerate the softener/resin. That volume of resin dictates the size of the tank that has to be used and the size of the tank dictates what control valve can or can not be used to service that size tank and volume of resin. I.E. the 5600 can be used for a softener on tanks from 6" - 12". A 12" tank is a 2.0 cuft softener.

    You have 2 people * 60 gals/person/day = 120 * 15 gpg = 1800 * 8 days = 14400 rounded to 15K. 15000/15 gpg = a meter setting of 1000 - any reserve you use for a Fleck valve divided by 120 = the number of days between regenerations based on gallons used.

    So, a 12 gpm SFR = a 1.5 cuft softener programmed for 15K requires 4.5 lbs/regeneration for a salt efficiency of 3333 grans/lb; which you should use.

    A 1.0 cuft, "32K' has a 9 gpm SFR, usually too small for a 2-2.5 bathroom house unless you want to live with hard water at times. And you can't regenerate more than 30K which requires 15 lbs of salt which gives you a 2000 grain/lb efficiency and for 15K you need the same 4.5 lbs as a 1.5 cuft softener.

    Resin is resin like a 5 lb bag of sugar (they are equally as sweet), use the least expensive regular mesh resin you can find.

    The chlorine listed by your water company is at their treatment plant, not your house, so test at your house.
    Last edited by Gary Slusser; 07-24-2010 at 07:02 AM. Reason: corrected A 12.0 cuft, "32K' to 1.0 cuft "32K".
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  7. #7

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    So, based on what you are telling me I should have 36000 grain softener? I will have to get back with the Chlorine measurement.

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    In the Trades Akpsdvan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tmp9a59 View Post
    So, based on what you are telling me I should have 36000 grain softener? I will have to get back with the Chlorine measurement.
    But is that 36k at the eco setting of the salt or at the max setting of the salt?

  9. #9

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    The Flow I spoke of is for 2 tub faucets running full out (which is very seldom). I probably used SFR incorretly as the terminology for this measurement. The Chlorine measurement I can get. Just for the heck of it, I tried my pool test kit on the tap water. It did not register any chlorine. If a test strip is better, then I can certainly do that.

    The appropriate size of the softener is the big question in my mind.
    As far as salt dosage, any appropriately sized softener can be set to be as efficient as possible for the amount of water passing through. If a heavier salt setting will provide better service, that is no issue. As noted, salt is cheap overall.
    I have not considered a whole house charcoal filter simply because the I have longevity concerns vs the cost. If I am wrong about the expense of charcoal, please advise.

    This is really becoming very academic. What other factors can I supply to home in the softener size? I would then purchase and set the softener with the appropriate settings and be done. Because I live in Florida, a non digital would be best. Too many electrical storms for my comfort (hence the Fleck 5600).

    Thanks again to all.

  10. #10
    In the Trades Akpsdvan's Avatar
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    I my self would use either the 5600 meter or the 2510 meter and 1.5 cubic foot of resin like the C249 and a 200 lbs brine tank.

    The 2510 has the wheel that can have the times with in the cleaning cycle changed if needed and the brine refill is easier to control by how many spaces are for the brine refill.

    The 1.5 can handle up to 13 gpm.

  11. #11
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tmp9a59 View Post
    So, based on what you are telling me I should have 36000 grain softener? I will have to get back with the Chlorine measurement.
    And how did you arrive at that "36K" when I specifically sized the softener and said a 1.5cuft "48K"?

    Where have you ever seen anyone selling a "36K"? What size softener is that?

    Since you live in FL, how many lightening strikes have you had that have caused any damage to TVs, toasters, radios, etc.? And how have you protected those things from damage now? Do you wear a helmet when you drive or ride in a motor vehicle? Safety glasses?
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  12. #12
    In the Trades Wally Hays's Avatar
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    Here is a site link that makes sizing real easy.

    http://www.qualitywatertreatment.com...ner_sizing.htm

    Electronic, manual, your choice. I like electronic metered. It takes a lot of the guess work out of programming and they are more efficient but an old style manual valve will work just fine also and is less expensive.
    Perception is 3/4 of reality

  13. #13
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wally Hays View Post
    Here is a site link that makes sizing real easy.

    http://www.qualitywatertreatment.com...ner_sizing.htm
    LOL, you're right it's easy, but it is wrong. It doesn't even tell you how much capacity to program for.

    That calculator says the OP needs a 24K. The calculator uses 75 gal/person/day and you can't adjust that figure and it bases everything off of the grains/day without using the number of days between regenerations and there is no mention at all of salt efficiency or how much salt to program for. If you think that is a good way of sizing a softener for a prospective customer.... well, it is not good and actually it's wrong.

    I entered the OP's numbers, here's a copy;

    ****************
    Enter Your Information and Click Calculate *Round up where applicable.
    2 people X 75 gallons X { 15 GPG + 0.0 mg/l Iron } If City Water, Enter 0 for Iron Total Grains Per Day That Must Be Removed: 2250

    If Your Daily Grain Requirements Are: You Need a Water Softener With: 0 - 3,500 Grains Per Day ---- 24,000 Grain Capacity 3,501
    *****************
    That is a terrible way to size a softener and... Note that there is no mention of the peak demand gpm of the house or the constant SFR of the softener anywhere on that site. He's one of the guys that caused Clack to stop internet sales of their valves; Ohio pure water is another.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  14. #14
    In the Trades Wally Hays's Avatar
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    Gee, ya think? But, it's pretty damn typical of the way most companies size equipment isn't it?
    Perception is 3/4 of reality

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    And how did you arrive at that "36K" when I specifically sized the softener and said a 1.5cuft "48K"?

    Where have you ever seen anyone selling a "36K"? What size softener is that?

    Since you live in FL, how many lightening strikes have you had that have caused any damage to TVs, toasters, radios, etc.? And how have you protected those things from damage now? Do you wear a helmet when you drive or ride in a motor vehicle? Safety glasses?
    I guess this is where you sized it at 48K in your previous post:
    "A 2 to 2.5 bathroom house with no big tubs or showers usually can not flow more than 12 gpm. A 1.5 cuft softener has a 12 gpm SFR. A 1.5 cuft softener is called a '48K' but, you can't get 48K regenerated capacity, the max with regular mesh resin is 45K. To get 45K you must use 22.5 lbs of salt per regeneration. That is a 2000 grain per lb efficiency, which is the worst you can get (45000/22.5 = 2000)."

    If that is where you sized, I did not understand it to be the size, but an example. So, I will go with 48k. If I misquoted 36k my mistake. I have seen too many numbers to say where it came from. Thank you for your help with that.

    I have a whole house surge protector that will protect from indirect strikes on the power grid. If I have a direct strike all bets are off for any CPU in the house. Since I work in the electrical industry, I have seen plenty of damage from lightening. If others want to go electronic for an item where a more robust choice exists for the Florida environment, wonderful. Please do not assume I have not considered the possibilities and am being overly cautious. I am not a Luddite. Electronics do not automatically make everything better.

    If I give a bit of efficiency with a more manual system, it is not the end of the world.
    Last edited by tmp9a59; 07-24-2010 at 10:59 AM.

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