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Thread: Hopefully basic question on creating plumbing for softener

  1. #16
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wally Hays View Post
    Georgia is under the IPC. That's the "International Plumbing Code" with local amendments where applicable.

    Unless Georgia has amended the IPC to allow above ground use then it can not be.
    You do not know that GA or his county hasn't amended something.

    When you guys say not above ground does that mean that the transition to another material must be made underground? I don't think so. And there is a lot of PVC used as drop pipe that comes up out of the sanitary seal in the well casing and down into the ground off to the house. Are you guys saying that that is not allowed? Are you saying it, sch 40 PVC, can not be used that way or here in his pool house at his softener? If so then I say run the PE to the softener by pass valve and off it to the house.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wally Hays View Post
    And there are no local code books. Whatever code the state adopts is its code. We use the IPC in NH and Maine as well. Different regions, same code. There are no region specific code books although certain regions do amend the code for conditions. I.E. we have to penetrate the roof with a vent no smaller than 3 in half the state and up north 4 for frost closure reasons.
    I think there' s a copy in the local county library no? Wouldn't any amended version be in the local library where it applies? Wouldn't that be two different codes? A region of the country is more than two states and it isn't the same code when it has been amended.

    As to the use of PE, I said; approved for this application and you say;
    Quote Originally Posted by Wally Hays View Post
    It is not approved everywhere nor is it approved for all applications. The user needs to read and understand his states code before blindly following advice.
    I'll bet it is approved in GA. You'll have to show me what the code says that prevents PE from being used in this application in GA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wally Hays View Post
    Not getting a permit is not an "Individual freedom" It is in fact a misdemeanor punishable by fine.
    I've had guys say... Only if I get caught.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  2. #17
    Forum Admin, Expert Plumber Terry's Avatar
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    "Only if I get caught."

    The barefoot bandit felt the same way, only if I get caught, and then mom can sell the rights for the book and movie and make millions.

    Mom's requirements for her son, was that he only stole twin engine planes to crash land. She didn't want her son getting hurt.
    The fact that he was crash landing $340,000 planes didn't bother her. Boys will be boys.

    Harris-Moore is suspected of being responsible for approximately 100 thefts in Washington, Idaho, and Canada, including bicycles, automobiles, light aircraft, and speedboats.

    On July 11, 2010, Harris-Moore was captured just before dawn on the northern Bahamas island of Eleuthera. Local officers picked up his trail in Eleuthera after recovering a 44 foot (13 meter) power boat stolen from a marina on Great Abaco. Harris-Moore was carrying a handgun that he tried to throw away. A police official said the suspect initially attempted to flee but police shot out the engine on his boat. He was taken to Nassau, where he faces possible extradition to the United States.

    "These people that support him, they've never been violated by having him break into their homes or businesses," said Joni Fowler, manager of a cafe on Orcas Island north of Seattle where Harris-Moore is accused of taking as much as $1,500. "Just knowing he has a huge network of supporters makes me really worry about the state of this country." Fowler said she hopes Harris-Moore's arrest and upcoming court appearances will pop his mystique and fame — "once everybody figures out he's no God."

    Like I said earlier, if you want an okay to do whatever, then ask the home depot guy.

    If you're here asking licensed plumbers, you're not going to get the rubber stamp from them and hear that local codes and permits don't mean crap.
    They do mean crap.
    Or you can ask Gary, he doesn't believe in plumbing codes, period.

    Location. 2.7.1
    PVC piping shall be installed only outside the foundation of any building or structure or parts thereof. It shall be buried in the ground for its entire length except vertical piping may be extended above grade per Section 2.4.4. It shall not be installed within or under any building or structure or mobile home or commercial coach or parts thereof. The term "building or structure or parts thereof" shall include structures such as porches and steps, whether roofed or not, roofed porte-cocheres, roofed patios, carports, covered walks, covered driveways and similar structures or appurtenances. [UPC..604.0]

    Exposed Piping. 2.4.4
    Vertical piping may extend a maximum of 24 in. (610 mm) above grade when located on the exterior of the building or .structure and protected from mechanical damage to the satisfaction of the
    Administrative Authority. Where exposed to sunlight, the pipe shall be wrapped with at least 0.040 in. (1.0 mm) of tape or otherwise protected from UV degradation.
    Last edited by Terry; 07-14-2010 at 10:59 AM.

  3. #18
    In the Trades Wally Hays's Avatar
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    " Only if I get caught " That pretty much applies to any crime doesn't it? So by that logic if you don't gget caught it must be OK.
    Perception is 3/4 of reality

  4. #19
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    "Only if I get caught."
    The barefoot bandit felt the same way, only if I get caught, and then mom can sell the rights for the book and movie and make millions.

    Mom's requirements for her son, was that he only stole twin engine planes to crash land. She didn't want her son getting hurt. The fact that he was crash landing $340,000 planes didn't bother her. Boys will be boys.

    Harris-Moore is suspected of being responsible for approximately 100 thefts in Washington, Idaho, and Canada, including bicycles, automobiles, light aircraft, and speedboats.
    Yeah that's the condition of our society today; anything goes as long as you don't get caught and when you do, blame it on someone else or something in your childhood. To me it's a lack of character and IMO the fault of the parent, most kids today are raised by a mother that refuses to discipline for fear of hurting their child's feelings.

    Back to plumbing codes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry View Post
    Like I said earlier, if you want an okay to do whatever, then ask the home depot guy.

    If you're here asking licensed plumbers, you're not going to get the rubber stamp from them and hear that local codes and permits don't mean crap. They do mean crap.

    Or you can ask Gary, he doesn't believe in plumbing codes, period.
    I believe in health related codes for plumbing, electrical and buildings etc..

    The problem is that to me most residential plumbing, electrical and building codes seem to be based on politics and keeping the trade in business and growing (read making more money), not to protect the health of the population etc..

    I do not believe in many plumbing codes in regards to potable water line materials or their application such as are being applied in this thread.

    They are basically irrational illogical codes and not health related in the slightest.

    Such as PE pipe not being allowed, PVC is OK if buried but not above ground, PVC not inside a house.

    None of that is health related, logical or rational IMO and the opinion of many nonplumber Americans.

    They are all legal products and FDA approved for potable water line use. That is national.

    They have been used for many decades in large multiple state regions of the country if not national and there is no logical or rational reason that homeowners etc. can use them 'here' but as soon as you cross the township, county or state line, or some line the code has been amended on the other side of, you can't use them there or use them the in the same way.

    I say if they are legal products and sold in that area, the population should use them anyway they go together. And if there are no water leaks, yer good ta go on to the next project.

    And if the plumbing code has a factual reason for them not to be used, then the code writers etc. should lobby politicians to ban the sale of those products instead of this after the fact gotchya BS where a plumbing inspector or house inspector says "no good, do it over" based on a hard to understand code books that the average homeowner has not seen and usually never will see if he lives to be a hundred.

    IOWs we should be allowed to use legal products approved by the FDA for that use anyway we/they please as long as the use does not cause others health related problems; such as cross contamination on city water systems due to no backflow check valve on the city service line. And if no backflow prevention device is required in one area, why is it required over that township, county or state line in another area? Isn't it the problem we are being told it is or do the powers that be not care about the health of their citizens?
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  5. #20
    In the Trades Wally Hays's Avatar
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    Regardless of what "you believe in" Codes hold the same power as the law. If you want to argue the particular merits of any of the various code sections you are welcome to attend any meeting of your local code review board and you can join the ICC and have your voice heard there also. There are more than health concerns involved in the codes. There is also safety and damage to property. PVC is not approved for outdoor above ground use because sunlight deteriorates the pipe and there is also an issue with the breaking strength and rigidity of the pipe. Codes protect the health, safety and property. There is nothing "political" here at all. Code review boards take the engineering data from a product along with applicable test data and make a determination as to it's acceptance or not. At any rate, arguing about them is tilting at windmills.
    Perception is 3/4 of reality

  6. #21
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wally Hays View Post
    There are more than health concerns involved in the codes. There is also safety and damage to property. PVC is not approved for outdoor above ground use because sunlight deteriorates the pipe and there is also an issue with the breaking strength and rigidity of the pipe.
    You sound like someone extolling the supposed but fake benefits of OBAMA healthcare. There's no health concerns in this application of PVC.

    Many Americans with their own well, pools, pool filters water softeners/filters, irrigation etc. have used PVC outside in direct sunlight all over this country for decades without the problems you say the code is based on.

    Those are demonstrable facts that fly in the face of the code and why millions of people disregard the code.

    BTW, this application of PVC to install a softener with is to be inside his pool house, out of the sun.

    I'll bet there is other PVC in there already or will be if he is just now building the pool house.

    As so far as enforcement of the code.... Those people I describe above, they are township supervisors, local government officials/folks and the general population using PVC in direct sunlight without problems or enforcement of the code. That is because It is very inexpensive, very long term durable, is easy to install and it looks nice unless some dummy uses the purple primer most codes require to be slopped on it.... (I've never used it I used clear cleaner and cement).

    Quote Originally Posted by Wally Hays View Post
    Codes protect the health, safety and property. There is nothing "political" here at all.
    Yeah I hear ya, not political!! (wink wink) but millions of Americans are finally waking up to realize they don't need all this big brother safety and property protection "we know best" hand holding in all facets of their lives whether it be by codes or laws or regulations. For some silly reason they think it is a loss of individual freedom issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wally Hays View Post
    Code review boards take the engineering data from a product along with applicable test data and make a determination as to it's acceptance or not. At any rate, arguing about them is tilting at windmills.
    Yeah I hear ya!! (wink wink)

    Maybe they should get out of the office and test real world longevity etc. results.

    No arguing, just a simple and logical common sense based discussion with a good buddy but, I find most plumbers won't get in to a discussion. They simply wave the code book and pretend it has the importance of the Bible, Koran, Torah etc., and there is no doubt in my mind that it does have that importance to licensed plumbers.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  7. #22
    In the Trades Akpsdvan's Avatar
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    So what happens to the person when they go to sell a house that has had owner work done that is not to code? Will the bank finance the place? or will the person have to finance the place on their own?

    Would they need to have some one come in and redo the work to code for the bank to back the note?

  8. #23
    In the Trades Wally Hays's Avatar
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    Here is why I respect and follow the code:

    Years ago, I was like you. I hated codes and I hated inspectors even more. What in hell do those little weasels know I thought. I'm the guy out here doing the work. I'm the guy with the Masters license. Who gives a crap what some jumped up little Hitler that was probably appointed the job by his Uncle has to say. Then one evening I had to attend a code seminar. Something they make us do every year to keep up our license. They call it continuing education. To me it was yet another waste of my time and money to have to sit for 3 hours and listen to a bunch of crap I already knew. The state guy giving the class's name was Leo. Leo Larochelle. Leo had been a state inspector for 20 years or so and in the plumbing trade his whole life. Ii think he was in his mid 60's at the time. Leo started the class by tossing a copy of the IPC across the room. It hit the back wall with a smack and settled to the floor. " What a pile of shit this is " he said. We all laughed and agreed with him. Leo was not a fan of the new IPC having worked under the old BOCA code, he felt the new code was way too lenient. After all, it allowed for wet venting, something that at the time most of us felt was the epitome of hack plumbing practice. "But" he continued. " It is the code and it is the law. do you know why we have codes?" he asked. He got a few wise assed replies and then explained the purpose of the code book in a manner that I have remembered since that day.
    "The code is not there to protect the public. It is not written to protect the health and safety of the nation. It is written to protect the plumber. If you follow the code to the letter there is no way that if you are ever sued in a court of law that you can be held liable for damages or injury caused." " If you pull the permit and get the required inspections and your work is passed by a certified inspector then you have fulfilled your obligation in the eyes of the law"

    So it turns out that following the code also protects the consumer and the health and safety of the nation as well.

    I really don't care how you feel about codes, permits and inspections. Because you are not a licensed plumber I can not expect you to have the same respect for the law that the rest of us that are licensed do. We all, to a man worked damn hard for our licenses . We put in the schooling and the man hours necessary to earn it. And the learning never stops. Materials and methods change and so do the codes. we are kind of like cops. It's not our job to decide which codes we like and don't like. Because if we fail to adhere to any one of them we are held liable. That thousands of folks have illegally run PVC is of no concern to me anymore than the thousands that ignore speed limits and traffic laws. You are certainly within your rights to express your opinions but when you advise folks to do things that are against the code than we have an obligation to point out your error.
    Perception is 3/4 of reality

  9. #24
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Although this isn't and hasn't been about you, and you have made it about me, I hope you feel better now.

    I don't hate codes, I have a problem with some codes concerning the installation of water treatment equipment. And although I have not said it here, for years I have been saying that codes are mostly to keep the trades person straight; like your Leo said.

    In this case I don't see why you are involved. You aren't the plumber doing the installation so you have no liability in what I suggested or said I would do or use if it were mine. I too have no liability and IMO no need to say what is or is not "code". And my suggestions etc. are not an error.

    The OP can make his own decision as to the code and if he is going to follow it or not, it's not up to you other than to say it isn't code if you choose to.

    If he does not follow code and sells his house and a house inspector marks up the PVC to/from the softener in his pool house, if I were him, I'd say no problem and tell the buyer the PVC and softener have never had a problem in the x years since I installed it. He can accept it as is or.. I will remove the PVC and softener and he can install his own softener anyway and with any material he wants to or he can not buy the house.

    Banks do not get involved with anything like this, they get an appraisal a to the value/condition of the house.

    I've sold a couple houses as is. And I've told a few thousand people the above over the years. Usually the buyer sees the common sense in the comments and goes along. They can always remove the problem later.
    Last edited by Gary Slusser; 07-12-2010 at 10:55 PM.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  10. #25
    In the Trades Wally Hays's Avatar
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    So, though it's not about me? how about if someone had told him to run it with garden hose. would that be OK too? After all, it would be quick and fast. It would work. and hey, who cares if it's not to code right? Give me a break.
    Last edited by Wally Hays; 07-13-2010 at 03:43 AM.
    Perception is 3/4 of reality

  11. #26
    Journeyman & Gas Fitter Doherty Plumbing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wally Hays View Post
    I really don't care how you feel about codes, permits and inspections. Because you are not a licensed plumber I can not expect you to have the same respect for the law that the rest of us that are licensed do. We all, to a man worked damn hard for our licenses . We put in the schooling and the man hours necessary to earn it. And the learning never stops. Materials and methods change and so do the codes. we are kind of like cops. It's not our job to decide which codes we like and don't like. Because if we fail to adhere to any one of them we are held liable. That thousands of folks have illegally run PVC is of no concern to me anymore than the thousands that ignore speed limits and traffic laws. You are certainly within your rights to express your opinions but when you advise folks to do things that are against the code than we have an obligation to point out your error.
    Exactly. He's not a plumber so I can't imagine why he's arguing plumbing code.

    And like you said, us licensed PROFESSIONAL plumbers are held to a higher standard then joe-hack-jobs out there doing shotty work. They have nothing to lose, but we do.

    And I would NOT argue that code clauses are designed to keep professional in business. That's just silly to say that.

    Each code clause in every single code book is in there for a different reason. Some are there to protect you, some to protect others, some to protect the city and some to protect insurance companies from having to pay out on claims left right and center because there is a bunch of none-code, and therefor non certified, methods of throwing plumbing togeather.

    Will 1" PVC work. Ofcourse it will. But that doesn't mean it's the best solution to the problem, or even a good one.

  12. #27
    In the Trades Wally Hays's Avatar
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    Thanks, certainly not the first time we have run up against that attitude. Without codes we would revert to whatever anyone felt like doing or using at the time and naturally, 90% of the time that would be the cheapest, easiest thing or materials possible. We protect the health and safety of the public. I know that sounds kind of hokey and maybe even a bit self serving but thanks to modern plumbing practice an good many diseases and injuries just don't happen much anymore and I damn sure don't want to see those times return. A mans home is not his castle. Most of the time it is the banks castle but even so, since the founding we have been a nation of laws and it's those laws that serve the majority, not some hack that wants to do whatever he damn well pleases.
    Perception is 3/4 of reality

  13. #28
    Forum Admin, Expert Plumber Terry's Avatar
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    Location. 2.7.1
    PVC piping shall be installed only outside the foundation of any building or structure or parts thereof. It shall be buried in the ground for its entire length except vertical piping may be extended above grade per Section 2.4.4. It shall not be installed within or under any building or structure or mobile home or commercial coach or parts thereof. The term "building or structure or parts thereof" shall include structures such as porches and steps, whether roofed or not, roofed porte-cocheres, roofed patios, carports, covered walks, covered driveways and similar structures or appurtenances. [UPC..604.0]

    Exposed Piping. 2.4.4
    Vertical piping may extend a maximum of 24 in. (610 mm) above grade when located on the exterior of the building or .structure and protected from mechanical damage to the satisfaction of the
    Administrative Authority. Where exposed to sunlight, the pipe shall be wrapped with at least 0.040 in. (1.0 mm) of tape or otherwise protected from UV degradation.

    Last edited by Terry; 07-14-2010 at 03:04 PM.

  14. #29
    DIY Junior Member 606zpx's Avatar
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    Talked the county inspector who does plumbing inspection.

    He stated my plan was fine except to ensure to insulate against freeze damage.

    Maybe I need to clarify situation.

    My house is on a crawl space. The copper comes from the ground up into the crawl space and is elevated along the support beams.

    The following plan is allowable per inspector:

    1. Tie into the house 3/4 main supply prior to where it first branches (actually it will be after the first branch which is to a spigot that does not need softening).

    2. Will leave a direct copper line in place with valve in case I need to bypass the loop (sharkbite). Will use sharkbite t's and put a sharkbite valve on each leg just in case there is a problem in the loop.

    3. Run 1" PVC elevated along support structures proceeding under my deck, still elevated and supported, then directly into the pump house. Will do this for both legs.

    4. Insulate the PVC for entire length. At no point is PVC exposed to UV or unprotected otherwise. Note that when I bought the house the pool pumps were exposed and the piping is 2" PVC that was partially exposed. Put pump house up subsequently.

    I appreciate the help and the discourse was helpful as it spurred me to call my local agent.

    If I happen to have a problem with the PVC loop it can be isolated with the valves and house service will be uninterrupted.
    Last edited by 606zpx; 07-14-2010 at 11:40 AM. Reason: speellling (LOL, just kidding)

  15. #30
    Forum Admin, Expert Plumber Terry's Avatar
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    Talked the county inspector who does plumbing inspection.
    Then you're good to go. He's the guy you have to please.

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