Pumping uphill

GarryBaker · Jul 1, 2010

I have a spring that sits 2500 ft away with a vertial drop of 120 ft., I could use an electric or gas power pump. I do not need to move the water at a hight rate as I plan to just slowly fill an underground storage tank. What I woul like to know is a specf. pump I could use or where to call or a web site where I could learn more about my options. I presently just drive down to spring where the water is running into a storage tank i and use a pump to transfer to a 500 gal tank on a trail and drive it up and tranfers it to my under ground tank.

thanks

Gary Slusser · Jul 1, 2010

That will have to be a big pump, large cable too unless you have electric down there and then, a large diameter line like 2" - 2.5" poly pipe in 1000' and 500' rolls. Open discharge at a dribble into the tank might work with like a 1.5 hp 5 gpm submersible pump but I haven't looked that up. That's at sea level.

Sponsor · 2022-01-29T12:20:58-0800

Ballvalve · Jul 2, 2010

1" sched 40 PVC pipe moving 5 gallons per minute would work with a pressure loss of about 8 psi. You could operate a so called 5 or 10 gpm submersible inside your tank and run it with a generator., I am guessing that many 1/2 and 3/4 HP submersibles would exceed that easily. Look up the flow charts for submersible pumps on-line. Start with Dean Bennet supply.

With a 8 stage 1/2 hp pump you can get about 10 gallons per minute at the house with 5 or 10 psi outlet.

Auction sites have many cheap "reman" ace or other low end pumps that might be fine for such a deal as this. Your head and distance are very do-able at a fairly low cost.

If you had another 40 or 50 more feet of fall after the spring you could investigate a hydraulic ram and pump it for free.

I see a bunch of water ace or "Wayne" re-man pumps on ohgee-bay for about 179$ for a 3/4 hp.

Gary Slusser · Jul 2, 2010

ballvalve said:
1" sched 40 PVC pipe moving 5 gallons per minute would work with a pressure loss of about 8 psi.

How did you come up with that?

NHmaster3015 · Jul 2, 2010

Appendix E from the IPC

Ballvalve · Jul 2, 2010

Thanks Wally, maybe he'll get himself a chart now. Or he's figuring a 2500' head.
And believe it or not it [the 1/2 hp] would likely run at 1200' with 10 gauge copper, though 8 ga would put in the book.

tip for the wise guys: these wayne "reman" pumps are just home depot returns . I have bought them just to get the Franklin motor that costs about a hundred bucks more off the shelf. You can toss the pump head and be ahead.

Zl700 · Jul 2, 2010

What???

Its .835 PSI @ 5GPM on 100' of sch 40 1" PVC
So at 2,500' of pipe with nothing counted for couplings or bells that's 21 PSI drop.

But that pump for what you want , being that a slow fill is allowed still isnt that big

Gary Slusser · Jul 2, 2010

Wally Hays said:
Appendix A from the IPC

How doesn't mean where but everything I can find on friction loss in PVC pipe says his 8 psi loss in 2620' is wrong.

http://www.advancedenergyonline.com...op_in_pipe_flow_rate_.htm#Pressure Drop Table

http://www.watergarden.com/catalog/_pumps/friction.html and since PE is the slickest pipe there is I ifnd .62 psi per 100' of 1" without counting a coupler every 20-21 feet and there are 2500 feet after getting the water up a 120' cliff.

And since PE is the slickest pipe there is I find .62 psi per 100' at 5 gpm (there are like 27 100 feet sections) without counting a coupler every 20-21 feet.
http://www.endot.com/support/installation/PRESSURE_DROP_PER_100_FEET_OF_POLYETHYLENE_PIPE.pdf

NHmaster3015 · Jul 2, 2010

Now try a code book and get back to us.

Zl700 · Jul 2, 2010

Forget your code books, check with the manufacturers, they know their product.

1" sch 40 pressure drop is .835 per 100' @ 5 GPM

Gary Slusser · Jul 2, 2010

ballvalve said:
Thanks Wally, maybe he'll get himself a chart now. Or he's figuring a 2500' head.
And believe it or not it [the 1/2 hp] would likely run at 1200' with 10 gauge copper, though 8 ga would put in the book.

Oh so appendix whatever of the IPC is a friction chart of sch 40 pVC huh. Then how about you guys or wallly post a link to it or copy paste it so we can all see it.

No 120' head plus extras like fittings, it alone requires right at 50 psi without counting the couplers, to get 0 gpm flow up the 120 height, and that may be in all the 2500' away from the pump. He didn't say. So at your 5 gpm there will be more than 8 psi loss in sch 40 PVC unless you assume the 2500' is flat or downhill, and I don't.

And where do you get power from only 1200' away from the spring/pump that is 2500' away from the house? He hasn't said anything about 1200' or power.

NHmaster3015 · Jul 2, 2010

You have to buy a copy, they frown on copyright infringement. I can sell you a copy for $ 99.95 if you need one though.

Couplings for pvc do not reduce the area of the pipe and they count as zero feet.

Gary Slusser · Jul 2, 2010

I'll stay with the material manufacturers' figures.

Is there now 5 national plumbing codes or 6? Anyone talking about a 7th yet?

NHmaster3015 · Jul 3, 2010

There are no national plumbing codes. the individual states adopt whatever code they decide they want.
All of the code books are pretty similar in content. Most have been modified to merge with the building code.

Ballvalve · Jul 3, 2010

zl700 said:
Forget your code books, check with the manufacturers, they know their product.

1" sch 40 pressure drop is .835 per 100' @ 5 GPM

They know their product and want to sell you much more than you really need.

1" pipe works, but I used 1200' for the wires.... better take the genset down to the spring.

Gary Slusser · Jul 3, 2010

Wally Hays said:
There are no national plumbing codes. the individual states adopt whatever code they decide they want.

So all the codes are approved by every state and they pick'n choose which one to use... IMO that makes them National codes.

Wally Hays said:
All of the code books are pretty similar in content. Most have been modified to merge with the building code.

Which says they all vary in some areas and that takes me back to 5-6 and I'm guessing there will be a 7th sometime.

NHmaster3015 · Jul 3, 2010

As far as I know there are only three that are in common use. IPC, UPC NSPC but you are misunderstanding how it works. There are no nationally accepted codes. the fed has nothing whatsoever to do with plumbing regulations. The codes are written by various organizations and then adopted by the individual states. I have no clue why you want to call them national codes, they are not. Several states like Mass and Illinois have written their own codes. But you may as well keep on believing and incorrectly telling everyone your opinion because you are never wrong.

https://terrylove.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?26-Plumbing-Code-Questions

Ballvalve · Jul 4, 2010

I wish the owner of this thread would come back after all this fun and give an update. I dont care much about the code, as the flow in PVC is well established and not contested anywhere. Hundreds of calculators and charts on line, do a few and average it out.

Zl700 · Jul 4, 2010

Wally Hays said:
You have to buy a copy, they frown on copyright infringement. I can sell you a copy for $ 99.95 if you need one though.

Couplings for pvc do not reduce the area of the pipe and they count as zero feet.

Thats not true, since the ends cause turbulance, even a 1/2" cc coupling has a loss factor.

All fittings, open valves, couplings have a loss factor to calculate head/friction, guess the code book doesnt know that either.

Zl700 · Jul 4, 2010

Your forgetting IRC, with its plumbing section that is attempting to roll all together

Pumping uphill

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