Fleck 9100 and well gpm questions

Thanks again Gary Slusser and Bob999 for replying.

Gary, the company offering the Fleck 9500 had suggested the 9500 based on the information I had told him as far as the flow rate based on the water collected and time the pump turned on and off as well as the well drill log sheet that I picked up from the township. Prior to meeting any water treatment company, I had originally thought about getting the Fleck 9100 with a 4cuft per resin tank and posted my question about flow rate and about the 16gpm I saw on a internet store for the 9100. Now I know it is more than just the flow rate of the control valve but also the amount of resin needed.

I don't feel comfortable posting the actual price quoted between the Kinetico CP and the Fleck 9500, but the price difference installed was a little over 2k. That was one of the reason why I was leaning towards the Kinetico, plus it had 0.5cuft extra per resin tank. I actually have a friend in Florida that has that phosphate injection system for his irrigation. I remember seeing the plastic tank. It definitely made a noticeable difference but you could see a lighter iron stains compared to his neighbors around the development that I believe had no treatment at all. I do not know what his iron level is but the stains around the development were a really dark brown tint on the trees, driveways, house.

Bob999, the reason why I believe I need the 20+ gpm treated because the sprinkler company told me that they will run the zones in order to keep the well pump running all the time without turning off. They will also be increasing the pressure switch setting as he needs at a minimum 25psi at the sprinkler. Currently it is set at 40/60. Thanks for the link on the Ohio Pure. Its quite the price difference compared to the local quote I got. I always support local business as much as possible especially when I can get support if things go astray. But then again, the price difference is tough to swallow. I'm going to take a drive and see if I can find a neighbor with sprinklers running without stains and see which water treatment company he/she used to get another quote locally.

Thanks again Gary Slusser and Bob999 for your replies.

Boudreaux

boudreaux said:

Bob999, the reason why I believe I need the 20+ gpm treated because the sprinkler company told me that they will run the zones in order to keep the well pump running all the time without turning off. They will also be increasing the pressure switch setting as he needs at a minimum 25psi at the sprinkler. Currently it is set at 40/60.

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Avoiding pump cycling is an important consideration. However there is another approach that is discussed extensively in the well and pump forum on this site--that is installing a Cycle Stop Valve (CSV).

I suggest you browse some of the info. Start here:

https://terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?30465-Constant-Pressure-or-CP-Systems

Bob999 said:

boudreaux:

Not withstanding all the bickering with Slusser I just want to be clear with you that it is my opinion that if you want to treat 20+ gpm with a softener the Fleck 9100 valve will not provide satisfactory service because of the relatively small size of the passages in the valve which will result in excessive pressure drop through the valve.

One approach you might consider for a flow of 20+ gpm would be to install 2 Fleck 9100 systems in parallel. This would substantially reduce the equipment cost and provide satisfactory flow/pressure drop for 20 gpm flow.

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I just last night watched a webinar from Fleck about control valves.

The guy got into data on spec sheets and mentioned something you have never mentioned yet Bob; as if it isn't on the spec sheet....

When you figure out what that is, get back to me about a 9100 (which is full 1" ported BTW) on 3-4 cuft tanks not being the right choice for this application Bob. My 23+ years experience in selling and servicing softeners, including twin tanks with a Fleck 9000/9100 control valves says it is.

Now you're suggesting two 9100s, that is a very bad idea because it is not necessary and just adds to the cost.

Gary Slusser said:

The 2.0' has a 12 gpm constant SFR and the 2.5 has 18 gpm. And IMO you need more resin for a peak demand of 20+ gpm; especially with 3 ppm of iron.

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And then on his website Slusser says the following about SFR (Slusser Flow Rating):

"[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The constant SFR gpm of most softeners is: 1.0' cuft = 9, 1.25' = 10, 1.5' = 12, 2.0' = 13, 2.5' = 18, 3.0' = 20, 3.5' = 22 gpm, 4.0 = 25 etc.. [/FONT]"

So the bottom line is he is just picking numbers out of the air and posting whatever comes to his mind at the moment. There is no ryhme or reason to the figures he spouts.

Bob999 said:

And then on his website Slusser says the following about SFR (Slusser Flow Rating):

"[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The constant SFR gpm of most softeners is: 1.0' cuft = 9, 1.25' = 10, 1.5' = 12, 2.0' = 13, 2.5' = 18, 3.0' = 20, 3.5' = 22 gpm, 4.0 = 25 etc.. [/FONT]"

So the bottom line is he is just picking numbers out of the air and posting whatever comes to his mind at the moment. There is no ryhme or reason to the figures he spouts.

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Yes those figures are accurate.

No, I didn't pull them out of the air, I could post the data Bob but then you'd question where it's from and who says so etc. etc. "that's not what Purolite says" as you have done in the past but, where do you come up with your 8 gpm/cuft of resin Bob, no one anywhere agrees with you? But then you have improved because not too long ago you were saying a maximum of 5 gpg/cuft.

Gary Slusser said:

But then you have improved because not too long ago you were saying a maximum of 5 gpg/cuft.

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There you go again huffin and puffin and posting false information.

I challenge you to back up your statement.

Boudreaux, I hope you managed to get something of value from your thread. Unfortunately 9 out of 10 times, when the subject of sizing or programming comes up, it rapidly turns into a argument that is of little or no help to anyone. If I could have PM'd you I would have and given you a decent place to start but alas, we can not PM. I guarantee that if I post my recommendation here, there will be yet another endless argument and questioning of one's ability to properly size things.

Wally Hays,
I definitely have learned alot from this thread. Importantly, I did not make a bad purchase for my paricular application with the Kinetico CP thanks to Gary Slusser and Bob999 in explaining it.

Gary, are you saying that the Fleck 9100 with the 1" control valve with 4 cuft resin per tank is able to handle continuous 20.4gpm without leakage? The spec sheet lists continuous 21gpm for the control valve, would I still get 20.4 gpm treated? Would there be less gpm due to the pressure loss by the resin?

Thanks,

Boudreaux

As I've said before, the control valve has nothing to do with hardness leakage, it is a function of the resin only.

The softener would have a constant SFR of 24 gpm until a regeneration starts and is finished.

Yes with the 1" meter and 32mm distributor tube but I would not use a softener for your irrigation water, I'd only use a softener on the house water.

The valve head has nothing to do with it. You will get treated water until the resin is loaded which is a function of how much water you put through it and during regeneration you get untreated water.

The valve head contributes to pressure loss but has nothing to do with harness leakage. Hardness leakage, to simplify things a bit, is a function of the size of the resin bed and flow--the higher the flow the larger the volume of the resin bed needs to be (all other things equal).

I recall you posted that your irrigation contractor was going to increase your pressure settings to provide adequate pressure for the irrigation system. That suggests to me that you need to pay attention to pressure losses associated with any equipment you install in your water supply.

The primary differences between the Fleck 9100 and 9500 control heads are the size of the internal passages and pressure drop across the valve at differing flows and the accuracy of the meter at low flows. The Specs for the 9100 show that there is a 15 psi pressure drop across the head (alone) at a flow rate of 18 gpm (21 gpm with the 1" meter). So if you can accept a 15 psi pressure drop and accept the limitations of the 1" meter the Fleck 9100 with a 1" meter could be used. The downside of the 1" meter, as compared to the 3/4", meter is it's ability to accurately measure low flows that typically occur in residential use--when you are not irrigating for example. The 3/4" meter is reasonably accurate down to flows of .25 gpm while the 1" meter is reasonable accurate down to flows of 0.7 gpm.

The Fleck 9500 will flow 9.8 gpm with a 1 psi pressure drop and 38 gpm with a 15 psi pressure drop. Intermediate figures are not published but the relationship is logarithmic and pressure drop at 20 gpm is probably in the 3-5 psi range. The Fleck 9500 meter is only accurate 1.5 gpm and up.

Wally Hays said:

You will get treated water until the resin is loaded which is a function of how much water you put through it and during regeneration you get untreated water.

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Wrong, a twin tank provides softened water through the tank in service as the other tank is in regeneration.

Yes, but when did we determine that he was going with a twin tank set up? I may have missed that post and if so then sorry, please disregard post #50 though didn't you post much the same thing in post #49 ?

Bob999 said:

The valve head contributes to pressure loss but has nothing to do with harness leakage. Hardness leakage, to simplify things a bit, is a function of the size of the resin bed and flow--the higher the flow the larger the volume of the resin bed needs to be (all other things equal).

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Well not all things. Such as larger volumes of resin can use less salt than smaller and that results in higher salt efficiency.

Bob999 said:

The primary differences between the Fleck 9100 and 9500 control heads are the size of the internal passages and pressure drop across the valve at differing flows and the accuracy of the meter at low flows.

The Specs for the 9100 show that there is a 15 psi pressure drop across the head (alone) at a flow rate of 18 gpm (21 gpm with the 1" meter). So if you can accept a 15 psi pressure drop and accept the limitations of the 1" meter the Fleck 9100 with a 1" meter could be used. The downside of the 1" meter, as compared to the 3/4", meter is it's ability to accurately measure low flows that typically occur in residential use--when you are not irrigating for example. The 3/4" meter is reasonably accurate down to flows of .25 gpm while the 1" meter is reasonable accurate down to flows of 0.7 gpm.

The Fleck 9500 will flow 9.8 gpm with a 1 psi pressure drop and 38 gpm with a 15 psi pressure drop. Intermediate figures are not published but the relationship is logarithmic and pressure drop at 20 gpm is probably in the 3-5 psi range. The Fleck 9500 meter is only accurate 1.5 gpm and up.

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Bob, you don't mention what the 9100 will flow at with a 1 psi pressure drop but BOB! I'm so glad to see that you're finally using all the data on a control valve spec sheet. I'll accept your apology.

What is the 9100 flow rate at 1 psi drop?

I also note that the 9500 meter is not good for household applications.

Wally Hays said:

Yes, but when did we determine that he was going with a twin tank set up? I may have missed that post and if so then sorry, please disregard post #50 though didn't you post much the same thing in post #49 ?

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The subject of the thread is about a Fleck twin alternating control valve which is used on a twin tank softener and you said "untreated water when in regeneration", that is wrong. A twin provides softened water from one tank while the other is regenerated.

No I didn't say the same thing.