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Thread: Flow Inducer Sleeve; Need fine details, bolt size, etc

  1. #1
    DIY Junior Member JohnD2007's Avatar
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    Default Flow Inducer Sleeve; Need fine details, bolt size, etc

    Got old 1/2 HP Submersible pump pulled today, 6/26/10. 'Want' to attach
    a flow inducer prior to running new pump back in hole, both for longer
    life for the pump, but also to reduce producing/getting sand from my
    80' water well. I find diagrams of the Flow Inducer Sleeve, but newbie
    that I am, I don't know what exact size bolt size, length, lock washers,
    etc to do it right. Here are my particulars:

    82' Total Depth water well, original pump set at 79'. 5" PVC
    Casing. I'm using schedule 40 1" PVC for my drop pipe. I've
    got the thin walled 4" DWV pipe cut already into a 3' section to
    shroud my new pump in, but the fine details about exact bolt
    size, lock washers etc is an unknown to me, and I don't want to
    add the Flow inducer sleeve, unless I know I'm doing it right.

    I've got my new string of 80' 1" PVC layed out, glued and ready
    to go. Intend to stack a Brass ck valve just above the new pump's
    discharge, hopefully as a back up to the factory installed ck valve,
    on my new Sta-Rite J series S/mersible pump. The last Sta-Rite
    I put in their (with help) is/was nine yrs old, it's bearings are frozen
    up, either from a nearby lightning strike, or, from I don't know
    what.

    Instructions, or directions to where to find the gory details on the
    Sleeve is my panic button of the day issue.

    Thanks,

    John

  2. #2
    Well driller,pump repair. and septic installer Waterwelldude's Avatar
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    Don't have much info for you on the sleeves. We don't have much call for them.

    But,
    If you are gluing it, DO NOT USE CLEANER, on the joints.
    Use sand paper to clean the joints.
    The cleaner will not let the glue adhere to the pipe.
    If you used cleaner on the pipe, IT WILL COME APART, be sure and use good s/s cable to hold the pump when it drops off.
    Because it will fall off.


    Travis
    Last edited by Waterwelldude; 06-27-2010 at 09:36 AM.
    "I shall never surrender or retreat" -Col. William Travis


  3. #3
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    I don't know how you think you are going to bolt a sleeve onto the pump. You clamp it on after cutting slits in the pipe so it can be compressed tight against the wet end of the pump. And since you say nothing about finding any sand, why go with a sleeve?

    Another thing is you only have a 1/2" of clearance with a 4" pump in a 5" casing that has gaps caused by its couplers.

    Also, at only 3' off the bottom, the pump is too close to the bottom of the well; set it at 10'.

    A new pump does not need another check valve on it. Especially in a 82' well... It takes 5 psi to open a check valve and check valves rarely fail, so don't add the external one.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
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    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  4. #4
    General Engineering Contractor ballvalve's Avatar
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    First go to Franklin motors website and read up on flow inducers. You probably do not need one. Not a good idea to use schd 40 pipe in a well, poly or 80 is much safer. DWV pipe is not rated for water and will put out some toxins.

    I don't get the advice about sandpaper and no primer. If you really want it to stick, prime it, sand it, prime it again and then glue it with grey cement. The second check is a good idea, but I would have used my money on better pipe.

    I do not see a 3' flow inducer reducing sand intrusion unless its quite longer and the sand is a large particle size. Perhaps a flow inducer with a 5' x 4" Johnson type sand screen on the end would be effective.

  5. #5
    Well driller,pump repair. and septic installer Waterwelldude's Avatar
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    Im not here to argue.
    If cleaner is put on well drop pipe, IT WILL FALL OFF. I have seen it too many times.
    Dont use any type of cleaner or primer, just sand the pipe and glue it.
    If you dont believe me, Fine, try it yourself. Just use good cable to hold the pump.
    "I shall never surrender or retreat" -Col. William Travis


  6. #6
    DIY Junior Member JohnD2007's Avatar
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    3:55PM Sunday. Just opened this up to read all the replies, then took more High Blood pressure meds.
    1st) I've already glued the 1" schedule 40 PVC drop pipe together, yesterday/Sunday, and, I did use the primer to
    glue the joints. The schedule 20 that we pulled yesterday morning, had been in the well for 29 yrs, and hadn't 'snapped'
    or parted until we pulled it out yesterday, to remove the pump that had been in there for 9 yrs.
    2nd) Gary, I understand the part about cutting snips in the 'top' of the 4" pvc sleeve to collapse, then worm pipe clamp,
    then taping the top part of the flow inducer sleeve. That part I get, the part I could not figure 'for sure' was the lower
    part of the FLow inducer sleeve. 'How' to put bolts, or screws, 3 @120 degree intervals, for keeping the sleeve 'centered',
    that would 'stay' forever, or for the life of the pump. This well, when pumped hard for more than a 3-4 minutes, say at
    apprx 8 gal/min, or more, begins to produce sand. I don't often need to put out a lot of water fast, but still wanted to keep
    sand production at a minimum. This is for lawn & landscape watering only. When I walked into to the pump place, to get
    a pump I said "How bout a sand sock, or something to keep out the sand", to which he suggested this "Flow Inducer Sleeve"
    as a way to help minimize sand production. As I said before, if I'm not thinking I'm doing the flow inducer sleeve part of this
    job 'correct', I'd feel better just running the pump back in there naked, like the previous two.
    Well drilled & completed in 1981, with 1/2 HP Jacuzzi pump that lasted 20 yrs. Last pump, Sta-rite J-series, lasted 9 yrs, and
    as I mentioned, I know the bearings are froze up/locked. Just not sure, exactly, why.
    Thanks for your help. I will digest all your suggestions while the Linisopril (BP med) hopefull does it's job, before whether deciding
    to chuck my Flow Inducer sleeve idea, or not. Will also try to locate Well Driller's notes, to note where he 'logged' water top &
    bottom at, to perhaps as Gary suggests, setting it higher might be a good idea. When 'pulling' yesterday, we did have to hook a
    come-a-long onto the top of the drop pipe to "Bust it loose" for the first ft or so, then it came right on out.

    Appreciate the help.

    John

    PS: Bought new 115 lb/test poly rope, for the safety/rescue rope. Hope I won't need to use it
    anytime soon.

  7. #7
    General Engineering Contractor ballvalve's Avatar
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    Better take more meds, maybe diazapram with a cocktail: the guys around here hate rope in a well. I think its okay as long as its black or yellow and made in the USA. SS cable is good too. The chinese debri rope returns to grocery bag material in a few months.

    Primer is essential, just go in the plumbers forum and ask. Your pipe will likely survive, I have seen long strings last quite a few years.

    Sounds to me that your flow inducer is not needed [20 years and 9 years test] and that you already know that its a long pull on the water supply that causes the sand introduction. Why not invest in another storage tank and add a dole valve or ball valve and throttle back the flow to about 3 or 4 GPM?

    If you do a flow inducer make it longer to give the sand less incentive to travel upwards. I would center it with 3 SS "L" brackets hose clamped, cut to height, epoxied to the motor housing, thus no intrusion into the narrow casing. Never mind any thing OUTSIDE the pipe.

    You can also add more sprinkler zones to reduce the drawdown.

  8. #8
    DIY Junior Member JohnD2007's Avatar
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    Thanks Ballvalve, I have heard of Diazapram, & a drink might help a bit too. I erred in this opening thread when I said "Yesterday/Sunday",
    which of course was Saturday. Anyway my helper is gone, it's Sunday night now, and we've had a little rain, with more in the forecast,
    so a non-urgent situation, (need for the water well back up and running) is even less pressing, if we do in fact get said 'forecast' rain.
    They never miss on the Wx forecast, right? Anyway, I think the hardest part of this DIY project for me, getting the old pump out, and,
    determining that it is in fact kaput, and was not a wiring problem, is (I hope) the biggest part of the job. I'll juggle and digest the options
    you guys are giving me here before deciding, at a leisurely pace, which & what way to go with running my new pump back in. Still
    chewing on the "To Flow Inducer Sleeve", or "Not To Flow Inducer Sleeve" is the biggest of questions for me now, I think. Nothing wrong
    with returning the 113 lbs (made in Mexico) safety/rescue rope, if I need a stouter rope/cable. Some say not to go with Sch 40 PVC,
    & some say it's okay. I've got my 80' string made up, but if I 'knew' that I had to chuck that, I would only be out 40-50 bucks, and me &
    my buddy's time, and a few beers. I didn't 'splain my self' very well, by not stating that I think I understand securing the top part of the
    Flow inducer sleeve. It's the lower half (keeping the motor centered inside the 4" PVC) that was eating me up. Thank God for life's smaller problems.
    I think I mentioned before that original drop pipe installed in 1981 was Schedule 20, 200 PSI 1" PVC, so, with it lasting 29 yrs, I thought, maybe not
    correctly, that "why wouldn't thicker schedule 40 PVC, not be a safer, longer lasting way to go"? Maybe though it's 400 PSI capable, it's more brittle?
    I've got apprx 500 dollars+ in parts so far, with pump, so like I said, if I decided to chuck the schedule 40 PVC I could. I laid my city water line from the
    main to my home with 1" Sched 40 PVC, 3-4 yrs ago, and I used usual primer & glue on each joint, and knock on woood, no leaks yet. Of course
    that's a slightly different application than hanging 24/7 inside a water well.

    Here's some more specs/Driller's notes from when he drilled & completed the well 29 yrs ago:
    As before; Well depth drilled to 83'. "Logged water @54' & @68'.
    Perforations from 82' to 52'. Original pump set at 79', 5' in Red Bed formation. "Well completed @ 81'.11".
    "Bailer test 600 gallons per hr". Some of those numbers seem slightly contridictory, but to professional
    water well drillers, they are routine sounding.
    Mr. Higgins (and sons) drilled a lot of water wells around here (Abilene Tx area) besides just mine.

    I'm thinking Red wine tonight. They say it's healthy, in moderation.

    Appreciate the opinions, input, and suggestions.

    Thanks guys, this is a great online forum.

    John

  9. #9
    DIY Junior Member JohnD2007's Avatar
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    PS: Thought of another minor detail to ask/throw into the mix. The electric/power line for the pump, is I think also the
    original wire 29 yrs old, possibly was replaced nine yrs ago at last pump change, but, either way, I see no fraying, nicks,
    or apparent wear on it from one end to the other. Don't want skimp on the minor accesories that go with running a new
    pump in the hole, but don'[t want to spend money for parts of the system that I don'[t need either. Except for the portion
    of the elec line that stays submerged constantly in water (it's brownish as we have scale, silt, and slightly hard water) in
    my area. I think geologically speaking, when my water well does give up sand, I think it's known as being from the "Antler"
    sand in this region, not certain, but I think that's accurate.

    If there are other particulars I should include, but haven't, please fire them at me.

    Thanks again,

    J/D

  10. #10
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    I would not use the sleeve, the clamps will stick out all but a half inch and sand will pile up on and around the pump because of the perforations above the pump and probably cause sticking of the pump as you experienced when pulling it now.

    No rope or cable. You have 29 years without needing any, on sch 20 pvc no less so where is the logic in planning on sch 40 failing?

    The same goes for the additional check valve. And cleaner/primer not being used on the pvc...

    Set the pump at like 72' reusing the old cable and be done with it. Or keep worrying and concerning yourself about things that haven't happened over a 29 year history while your BP increases.... LOL
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

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    General Engineering Contractor ballvalve's Avatar
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    If not done before the pull, get the wire into water and test it for continuity and leakage to ground before reuse. Do it again once you set the pump.

  12. #12
    Moderator valveman's Avatar
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    Hi John, My favorite place to eat is in Tuscola. I bet you know where I am talking about. I have a place just south of you in Coleman County. In that area you want to keep your pump as close to the bottom of the well as you can. You don't need centering devices for a flow inducer. You need the flow inducer to be about 2' longer past the bottom of the motor to help with sand. Even then it won't help much unless the sand is large and heavy. Light sand will just float up with the water. They make a Lakos Sand Seperators that fit over a sub and will filter the sand. However, as with the long flow inducer, if you don't pump the sand out, it will fall to the bottom and fill up your well. Then you have to get the sand bailed out of the well. Might be better just to pump the sand and filter at the top of the well. I always use a flow inducer. I think it is important to help keep the motor cool.

  13. #13
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    So why do pumps in his area need to be set on the bottom of the well?

    I've only worked on rock bore wells but I've never seen a need for a sleeve and I haven't heard of but 1-2 from anyone on the internet in 14 years. He hasn't had one in 29 years...
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  14. #14
    General Engineering Contractor ballvalve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    So why do pumps in his area need to be set on the bottom of the well?

    I've only worked on rock bore wells but I've never seen a need for a sleeve and I haven't heard of but 1-2 from anyone on the internet in 14 years. He hasn't had one in 29 years...
    Franklin is pretty specific about the amount of water that needs to pass over the motor for cooling, so unless you are certain the well is bottom fed, seems like a great and cheap idea for all installs.... no matter how many make it by without.

    So a short one that pumps the sand might be best.

  15. #15
    DIY Junior Member JohnD2007's Avatar
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    6/29/10: Valveman, the place you like in Tuscola is maybe "The Homeplace"? I tried to go there once, but they were closed. From where I live,
    it's outta the way to go to Tuscola, and I seldom go thru there, and when I do, I'm usually en route to get to someplace other than Tuscola.
    Homeplace is famous tho, and I regret not having tried it yet. I'm a bit anti-social, and don't go out to eat much.

    We've gotten a little of the rain that was forecast, so, I'm less pressed about installing my new H2O pump, and whether to "Sleeve, or
    not to Sleeve" it. Yesterday/Monday, we barely got over 80 degrees, which is freakish (and nice) around here for this time of year. Rest
    of the week is supposed to be cooler, & rainy, so I've got even more time to procrastinate, and ponder my options. Sounds like getting a
    different rescue cable than the 113 lbs mexican rope, might be time & money well spent. The well's Driller noted "1200 lb test" line, and
    I'd guess it to be 1/2 inch, and is white. It sure worked last wk end when the 29 yr old schedule 20 1" PVC drop pipe, broke, in several
    places as me and my bud were pulling the pump. Either he was not a very good helper, or I'm not a very good instructor as to how to
    "best help me" for pulling a pump, for the first time/DIY method. It's a white plastic/nylon rope, but I can't imagine it'd lift 1200 lbs, but
    it surely has lasted for 29 yrs. Again, "doing it right the first time" is my aim, and spending another 10-30 bucks for secure rescue cable
    seems like the thing to do. Got my money's worth out of that old rope, and it might last another 29 yrs, but I don't want to push my luck.

    Sleeving: I like the idea of extending the pump's life via cooler operating temps, and if it will help reduce the little bit of sand produced,
    it'd be nice. From what I read, a Flow inducer will also allow a pump to operate in more shallow depths, which for times when the well is
    pumped down, or the water table is low, would be a nice feature. I do have a sand filter in the line, on the surface, just past/after the water
    comes out of the 42 gallon pressure tank. It's the washable/reusable type filter system (100 mesh screen?) and now that my home's on the
    community/city water, I have to clean the filter less often these days, but the less sand the better. Can't remember if I mentioned, my well also
    produces a bit of silt too.

    The pump supply where I got my pump is a good store, and the owner's nice. I've worn out my welcome though with questions, and being
    a newbie to DIY for water wells, he's tired of me. Hell, I'm tired of me. Reading & re-reading all the comments, replies, & suggestions is
    giving me a lot to think about. The thin wall 4" PVC to make the flow inducer sleeve surely won't last a lot of yrs, if there is torque with something
    abrasive in contact with it.

    *Ballvalve; from your 6-27 reply "never MIND anything OUTSIDE the pipe", do you mean stuff, in the annulus (between the 4" PVC sleeve & the well's
    5" PVC Casing?

    Thanks again for the help guys, time to take meds, and a break. It's showering & only 78 degrees here today @ 3pm. Ahhhhhhhh.....

    John

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