new well pump installation questions

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toolman613

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Here's the background: Our 4 year old submersible well pump started acting up last week. It would run for about 15 sec. and then shutoff for about 60 sec. and repeat (the pressure switch was working properly). I figured it was a thermal overload trip in the motor. I called our home warranty company who dispatched their local plumbing contractor (the only one in our area). The tech confirmed my diagnosis and got approval for a new pump. Our pump was a 1/2 hp 110v which they would have had to order. I was told by the tech that 110 pumps were more expensive and you could only replace the entire pump (not just the bad components) and we could go with a 2 wire 220v pump (the house had originally been wired for a 220v pump so all that was required was re-installing the 220 C/B and moving the wires) for the same price and have the ability to replace a motor separately if needed in the future. They had that type of pump available. As we had been without water for 2 days and with the weekend looming, I agreed. The tech was able to pull the pump himself, by hand (pitless adapter, only about 50' deep in well). He replaced it with a 3/4 220v 2 wire pump, dropped it in and we had water again.
My questions:
1) I was charged $1100 for everything. From what I've seen online for pump prices and labor rates that seems a bit steep. I even found the exact same 110v pump for under $300! I was told by the tech they had a flat fee for pulling pumps and he had no control over the pump price (both the old and new pumps were F&W brand). Everybody has to make their dime but I feel this was a couple hundred too high. Thoughts?
2) When installing the new pump the tech left the torque arrestor off, claiming he had seen where the upper clamp would fail causing the the arrestor to "balloon" when trying to remove the pump the next time and wedge everything in place. This seems rather unlikely and, after some reading, even less likely that the damage that could be caused by the pump slapping around down there. Should I install an arrestor?
3) He also left the ground wire disconnected saying "why ground something that's already in the ground". That seems plausible and I've seen posts about it being a nice path for lightning (which I'm pretty sure caused this fiasco). Should I get that wire connected properly?
This has been an educational experience and I'd just like to tie up these loose ends and put it behind me.
 

Justwater

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where i am in NE FL, we normally have a somewhat set price on changing/replacing pumps, whether it be 120' on steel pipe or 30' on pvc. some are easier, some are tougher. sometimes it take alot of work just to get to where you can pull the pump. the next time he gets 1100 for a sub swap, the job could be more involved.. sometimes alot more. looks like you happened to be one of the easy ones.. but i do understand how you feel, especially when someone swaps it that shallow without even needing a pump hoist... (which is part of the justification for drilling/service prices, these trucks are expensive). at 50', i wouldnt blame you for changing it yourself next time and saving the extra cash. at least now you know how easy yours is to swap.

i dont know anything about your area and know very little of that brand pump,.. although i think they use franklin motors, which i am partial to. i normally get that, and sometimes better to install/replace a submersible. i have always preferred 230v 3 wire pumps over 115v and the 2 wires.

as far as a torque arrestor, i have never used one or even seen one around here so i cant help much there. not sure what size your well is but i have installed a few smaller pumps in larger wells (couple 3" w/ 4" wells and 4" w/ 6" wells with no issues), but most of my work is 3-4" wells with 3-4" pumps. usually not much room for play, so i may not be the best suited for the arrestor dilemma. i probably wouldnt lose alot of sleep over it though.

i have seen pumps that were not grounded last a long time, and have heard all the grounding and no grounding talk. i say if there is a ground wire provided, apparently the pump was designed to be grounded.. and it would definitely be grounded on my job. it maybe it doesnt help, but it sure can't hurt.

hope this helps some.
 
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toolman613

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Sorry, I didn't mention that this is a 4" pump in a 6" casing. That seems like quite a bit of room for the pump to move around.

When I spoke with the tech later, I pointed out what you said about mine being an easy one (shallow and relatively new install). The problem is that my warranty company only has one contractor so I couldn't have shopped around unless I wanted to pay for everything, turn in an invoice and then wait for a check.
 

Ballvalve

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If you are not paying, I wouldnt complain much. Torque arrestors do not seem to work, but centering devices are critical [just ask BP oil] The ground wire wont help for lightening, and if it was lightening, your whole set up would probably have been toast, not just a pump going out on overheat. The warranty company paid him quite a bit too much it seems - at least he could have added the ground wire since its now code for that high rate.

Did he change the wire at least?
 

toolman613

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The warranty company only paid $600. When I read my coverage before I called them I figured that would be enough (naive on my part!). The rest came out of my pocket.

Not sure what you mean by centering device. Google only showed something that is used during the placement of the casing.

No, he didn't change the wire. I should say "power surge" instead of lightning. We had a heck of a thunderstorm go through the night before the problems started. It took out a computer, the BPL internet modem, and caused other misc. problems.
 

Ballvalve

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Graingers sells them, heavy duty coffee can lids for the wire and pipe to pass thru and stop chaffing on the walls. If the installer did not have good ohmmeter and ammeter and did not do tests to the pump before and AFTER installation, I'd say you and the warranty company got screwed. A good installer will write the test data and date near the pump electrical box, so one can follow any leakage in the wire over time or the condition of the windings to ground.

The torque arrestor is a glorified centering device, thats a lot better than NO nylon centerers. Most guys dont use arrestors as they get stuck and rot. But without something to keep the wires banging on the well walls, especially with the OLD wire still in the hole, you can start a fund for a new pump pull in a few years at best.

New wire and centerers for 50' would have been about 50 bucks. I have decided I do not like pump contractors, and have set hundreds of pumps, most of which are going 10 to 20 years on a set. Most die from worn impellers and reduced flow when you get the pipe and wires set with CARE. This guy is on the dole or a "fixed income" and probably drove off with a big smile.

BP is the ultimate a%$#%^hole well driller that was told to use double casing and 21 centering devices. They used 6 and single wall pipe. HEY! they saved 8 million to kill 11 guys and pay 5 billion to mop up a uncleanable mess. We should just nationalize all their assets like they do in south america. Nobody writing ohmmeter readings on the top of their well heads!

I have had lots of phones and modems and faxes smoked in lightening, but never hurt a pump. You could run a plug on the pump leads and pull it in a storm. All the old control boxes had lightening arrestors - might help in a mild surge.
 
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toolman613

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Grainger calls them "cable guards", if that's what you're talking about. And for only a couple of dollars each (even at Grainger's prices) that looks like good insurance. What spacing/locations should they be installed?

I've got a good Fluke meter and a megger so I may check the wires myself. If/when I end up pulling the pump for those cable guards I can disconnect the pump and check the wires without the pump attached.

The tech was a local good ole' boy and hung around for 1/2 hour swapping stories after he finished. He was rather speechless and very apologetic when I spoke with him yesterday morning after researching this over the weekend. He may be in on the deal but mostly I fault the plumbing contractor and the warranty company. I think the flat fee and no competition are what got me.

I have some lightning arrestors like the railroads use. I could easily rig up a connection for the pump wiring. Anything to prevent this from happening again!
 

NHmaster3015

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You are kidding right? $ 1,100.00 is dirt cheap to remove and replace a pump. double that price around here.
Torque arrestors are a bad thing. they don't do squat and can jam up in the hole making getting the pump out a real bear
You don't need a ground wire though the NEC would still require one for some dumb reason.
At 50' down cable guards are a waste of time also.
You got a good deal and the plumber did the job right.
 

toolman613

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Why does the depth of the well make the cable guards ineffective? I would think that would be more dependant on the relative diameters of pump and casing.

Here's why I think the price was steep: I've found the pump online for $500-$600. I doubt their cost was more than that (if so, they need a new supplier) and I've seen postings are various forums stating around $150/hr for labor. So they get the pump, add a fair markup and charge me for 1 hour's labor (which is how long it took him to do the swap) and I come out a couple hundred under what I was charged.

Let's say that the price was fair. In that case, I have another reason not to renew my home warranty next month. The money that I would pay for their premiums would just about equal their coverage (in this instance) and I would have my choice of contractors. It should be called a "Partial Reimbursement Policy" and not a warranty.
 

NHmaster3015

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So next time do the work yourself right? You have the experience and skill to look up prices, you should be a wiz at doing the work. If he bought the pump and parts for 600 bucks what would you consider to be a fair price, 650?
 

Valveman

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I agree that 1100 is not a bad price for having someone come out and do everything for you. Sure if you did it yourself you could have bought a pump for 5-600 bucks. There is also enough information on the Web that you could have figured out how to do all this yourself. Even here though you are getting different ideas on the ground wire, cable guards, torque arrestors, etc. By the time you purchased a $600 pump, decided if you needed new wire, if cable guards were necessary, figured out the pitless adapter, made an underwater electrical splice, then pulled and set the pump, you may decide that 1100 was cheap. Especially if you had to do it 2 or 3 times to get it right.

I don’t think the ground wire is necessary, but it is usually require for code these days. I don’t like cable guards, torque arrestors, or rope in any well. Starting torque doesn’t slap the wire around in a 50’ deep well as bad as in a 200’ deep well. It is cycling on and off multiple times that slaps the wire around anyway. This is just one more thing that the Cycle Stop Valve helps with by greatly reducing the number of cycles. Torque arrestors and cable guards will help if you are letting the pump cycle itself to death. If you have a CSV, none of that stuff is needed.
 

Ballvalve

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I think for 1100 bucks the guy should have got a few centerers and a new 50' wire - c'mon guys! We all know holes in the ground are crooked often and rocks poke out. If he only took an hour, and then a 1/2 hour to bull^&^%$ I would say that last half hour should have been used taping wire to pipe and testing the install. That 50' of used wire could be used nicely for the next yard light he needs.

So the guy does not have a CSV, and maybe he has small tank - then a few centerers and good wire protection can add years to it all. If its a high flow pump and bangs on shut off, thats a lot of hits to the well wall.

If the guy is on a set price, imagine what a sloppy job he could do on a 600' well. Bad system.
 

Valveman

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Torque arrestors and wire protectors are Band Aids for cycling. Small tanks cause cycling, and banging off from high flow is a symptom of cycling. Other symptoms of cycling are prematurely burned out pumps, motors, switches, capacitors, etc. Why use multiple Band Aids when the cure for all these things is to Stop the Cycling?

A good pump man spends years learning what works and what doesn’t. You are not paying him for what he does, you are paying for what he knows. If everything goes perfectly, you may not need expert advice. If just one thing doesn’t go right, a good pump mans knowledge is very valuable. If your pump man doesn’t know more about it than you do, you are better off doing it yourself. If your pump man has lots of experience and is very knowledgeable, paying him a little extra can save you thousands.
 

Cacher_Chick

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Around here the drillers won't pull a truck out of their driveway for less than $500. In my experience, most service businesses need to shoot for a 60% gross profit on parts to keep their labor rate in line. By the time you figure out the cost of overhead, one would have to charge $400 an hour for labor if not for parts sales.

If he showed up in his 78' Pinto and carried his tools in a 5 gallon bucket, you might have have been cheated.
 

Justwater

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for those that think 1100 is ripoff, start a well drilling/service business.
 
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Ballvalve

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Around here the drillers wont pull their trucks out of the driveway because they are out of gas and cant afford to fill the tank. Aint no holes to make anymore. If they get a 50 foot pump job, they might come in a 1972 Gremlin or Pacer with their tools in an old budweiser box. Their former union apprentice is the neighbors 12 year old son. But if that guy gives me new wire, tests the amp draw and conditions to ground, and tapes the hell out of the wire and sets a few coffee can lids to stop the wires from hitting the well walls, he is a frickin hero and deserves the 1100$ [although 8 or 900 would be more likely in this economy]

Give me a Pinto or a Rambler and a bad bucket of good tools, and you be getting some good results! That shiny $45,000 GMC service truck does not a pro make. It makes a guy that needs to cut corners to pay the repo man.

Judge a man by his works, persistence and results. Probably your best worker would ride in on a donkey cart.
 
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Justwater

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although it seems to be picking up some, it has been slow for a couple years. not slow enough for me to leave the service truck when i work on a well. if i could buy a new service truck with a hoist for 45,000 i would probably pull the trigger on it. takes more than a service body to pull a sub with 120' galvanized drop pipe, new service truck with good pump hoist more like 75. and we wont even talk about what i paid for my last well rig... and it wasnt even an expensive one.

union apprentice? most well companies are pretty small potatoes. we are very small, but can turn alot of work for the 2 employees we do have which is me and my dad. wasnt aware of any water well unions, apprentice programs, or anything else these big time trade businesses have. this isnt something you can go to nearest trade school, take a course and know all there is to know about well work in your area. too different everywhere you go. you have to find someone who is willing to teach you, which will be hard to find. or spend alot of time, hard work, and money trying to learn it yourself.

why should the economy make the price of well work go down? we are not paying less for the products we use, quite the opposite. i am getting 15-20% less for wells and pump work than i got 3 years ago just so i can stay somewhat competitive... but all the material that i buy has went up over 15-20% in 3 years... almost everything. are you paying less for anything you purchase these days due to the poor economy? so we should pay more for everything, but charge less for the work, that sounds like smart business. the real reason alot of service businesses arent getting what they should be is because people started making a little money, grew their businesses when things were good thinking it could never slow down, and have dropped prices now that it is bad, trying to get whatever jobs they can just to make payroll... they will stay afloat as long as they can i guess, but i'm doubtful they will be able to keep it up long, and we can get things back to where they should be around here. the guys that will survive will be those of us that paid for everything when things were good, so we wouldnt have to screw everything up, like they are doing now now, if things ever got slow. i can wait them out a while longer.

do the coffee can stuff if you choose, but i wouldnt worry about anything other than a pump, drop pipe, and wire in the well. pump is in casing right? pipe will never touch the 6" at 50', if so they would have never got casing in a hole that crooked. tape wire to pipe about every 10' would be more than sufficient. its a 15gpm pump, not 150. its gonna do very little to no moving around in there. just keep an eye out for shortcycling, csv would be a good choice. i've been using them a year or so now and very happy with the results.
 
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NHmaster3015

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Thank you for that excellent post. My cost of doing business has not dropped a dime with the bad economy. If anything it has gone up. And if the public expects us to operate at a loss it won't be long before there ain't anybody operating at all. I don't underbid anybody. I don't give a crap what anyone else is charging. I know what I have to charge to pay the bills and feed my family. When you drop your price below that level that's when you begin circling the drain.
 

Ballvalve

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You Eastern guys want some new, perfect shape used trucks? Big rigs with tool boxes and major league winches - cranes? Check out the auction sites from california. They are selling for scrap value because they dont meet new air control specs. Have to go out of state. Also because a lot of guys that DID NOT lower their prices or didnt have some back-up work options indeed spun right down that drain and are selling the tools in order to buy food. [The rigs you have and DO NOT SELL you can continue to use]

A recent LA auction sold several rigs worth 75m for 10 - 12m$.

In this last year I have bought at forclosure lumber yard auctions about 60,000$ worth of prime lumber for about $8,000. Building two rentals now for about 40 bucks a foot. Bought a mile of schd 80 -8" PVC pipe for about the cost of hauling it 300 miles. If I had a bigger acreage yard and more optimism, I would really take this belly flop of the economy to make a fortune.

Justwater, good points, and thats whats it all about : this is a game of musical chairs, when the music stops you better have a chair - which means you didnt hock yourself past your gonads in the big high time. I easily saw this crash coming and prepared for it.

We actually have a bigger issue at hand, and that is the loss of our manufacturing base to China and surrounds. If your customers with the bad pump dont have a job at the pump or refrigerator factory anymore, they start getting their water at night from the park. And living in their defunct motor home. Then when the next war starts and all of our 500 ton punch presses are in Shanghi, and our kids dont know what pliers are, we all be packing our bags for the new Auswich.
 
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