Closet Flange problem on new Aquia install

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rosenn

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Hello all,

I have a sewer gas issue. I just installed an Aquia I, 12" rough-in, barely made it as my rough-in was about 11". Fit OK, but some would say the tank is too close to the wall. Everything's tight and dry, but the bathroom is stanky. Must be sewer gas. When I mounted the PVC guts of the Aquia onto the closet flange, I could see where that piece was loose from the lead pipe below. I pushed it in tightly, seemed fine, regular wax seal, and tightened it all up. What seemed fine is obviously not. If gas can leak, so can fluid.

My plan:

1. Get the 10" Rough-in version (move this toilet to 2nd floor bathroom, and replace old Am. Stndrd)
2. Fix the problem.

#2 is the issue. My thinking is that I have to remove the lead waste-pipe, as I've been seeing that often suggested, because they can be easily damaged if snaking is required. If I don't have to remove the lead, I can take the replacement PVC closet flange I bought, and squeeze it in, screw it down, and I'm back in business. I can putty all around with plumber putty, and may be OK.

Is this acceptable? I don't want to do more than necessary, but I also don't like things not well done. If there is a 'right way', that's what I want to hear.

If I do have to remove the lead waste pipe, it's a short run from the 1st floor, into my basement, and luckily is a very good place to work. Only thing is, I've never done that. Could heat it up, get it off the old caste-iron, but how to connect a new one, and what material would be my questions.

Thanks in advance,

Nelson
Great Neck, NY
 

Gary Swart

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I'm going to leave the specifics of your problems up to the pros, but none of your ideas are valid. In my opinion, you are in over your head and should hire a plumber. Yes, I know this is a DIY forum, but at times the best advice to give a novice is to hire a professional.
 

rosenn

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Please elaborate

Not trying to sound defensive, but where am I off-base?

Regarding swapping out toilet for the 10" rough-in, that's the one I should have bought initially. Multiple posts on this forum go over that issue, and my tank is practically kissing the wall. I'm not interested in condensate damaging the wall, nor am I thrilled with the way the Aquia I assembles - it's got a pvc trap that mounts to the floor, and you slide the bowl into it. Because of my rough-in not being a full 12", I am uncertain that it's pushed in as much as it could/should be. I'm not getting any leak, but am not thrilled having the wrong sized toilet in there. No doubt on that one. It's probably not causing any problems, but I could use the 12" toilet in another location, and put the right one in while the seal gets replaced or the closet flange is getting fixed.

Regarding my sewer gas smell, where am I off base? Perhaps it's a bad wax seal. OK, replace it. Fine. Where my closet flange connected to the lead soil pipe was loose, and that can't be a source of sewer gas in the bathroom? If it is, repairing that seems to be a bit complicated, unless you're really experienced at soldering connections in a floor, onto lead pipe, without melting the thing. Taking an Oatley PVC closet flange with some form of friction fit, will over time expand the lead and may not make a good permanent connection.

In most posts I see pros recommending removal of the lead soil pipe and replacing with PVC, going back to the 1st joint and using a PVC spigot adapter, oakum, and plastic lead to make that connection. That's what I think is required. If I'm really off base, perhaps a pro reading this could help steer me in the right direction.

Regardless, I'm probably not doing it myself anyway. But before I call in someone, I want to know what that someone should be thinking when they encounter the job.

Thanks,

N
 

Terry

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I sell a lot of the Aquia toilets to homeowners, they tend to be better at slowing down and reading instructions then the plumbers.
I don't worry about them. They seem to be doing fine.
If the wax was squished down, there should be a seal there.
Since you only have 11", it may be that the spigot didn't enter the fitting far enough.
I'm sure that you need at least 11.5" for the install.
Moving it to a different room should do it.

The CST412MF.10 is an easier install then the CST414M
 

rosenn

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Thanks Terry. The toilet is great, but I really do believe it could be probably be slid into the base a bit further. On thinking through the problem, that connection is between the soil pipe and the trap, so if it weren't as tight as it should be, perhaps it's a source of gas leak. I'm certainly changing the toilet. We'll see what happens.
 

Jadnashua

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Describe what you did with the lead pipe and the toilet flange. The only 'right' way to deal with a lead pipe is to 'wipe' a brass flange ring to the lead. If you tried to attach anything else, such as a plastic flange, that could be the source of your problems.
 

rosenn

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Didn't do much

The brass piece with the closet flange, that presumably had been 'wiped' into place - is that the term for soldering lead to a brass fitting? Well that piece was loose, and you can see where the solder connection was no longer holding. But they mated together perfectly, and had not been causing any problem as it was. I put the new seal in place, and figured it 'may' all be just fine. I know, sounds a bit criminal when I think it over. I did not consider replacing it with some PVC insta-set, or the like.

Is it terribly complex to wipe my flange back in place? I am skilled with a torch, but residential plumbing is a hobby. My experience is all with steam boilers, so that's why I feel comfortable doing things, but need to learn what must be done.

Remove the piece, clean up both surfaces well with an emery cloth. Flux both surfaces and solder it in with 50/50 solder.

It is probably not as simple as sweating copper pipes together, but is it that far off? I would imagine it takes a delicate and precise touch, to make a decent connection, and not melt the lead pipe.

Provided the end of the lead soil pipe is good quality, which I think it is, that would be the simplest repair. Am I on the right track, or is there some reason why it would be best to yank out the whole lead elbow back to the cast iron soil pipe? That's not rocket science either, but is a much bigger job. My elbow is clean, with no stigmata of leaks on the outside, no funky bends. May be old, but everything in my house was well done.

-N
 

Jadnashua

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You'd need to talk to a real plumber to get the details. You don't really solder a flange to the riser, and direct heat from a torch, not done well, will just melt a hole in the lead creating more problems for you. There is no reliable way to put any other type of flange on that lead toilet riser...if you wanted to do that, you'd need to replace it with pvc or abs to then glue a flange to it. This would require access either from tearing up the new floor or from below. If the lead is in good shape, and the wax fully covers it, it should not leak. When the stuff gets old and work hardened, moving it can create cracks, which could be a problem for not only gas but sewage, if there were a backup in the pipes.
 

Shacko

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Lead Pipe

Anytine you run into lead pipe in the drainage system the good bet is to replace it, lead may look like it's in good shape, but it has a habit of wearing from the inside out.

...Is it terribly complex to wipe my flange back in place? I am skilled with a torch, but residential plumbing is a hobby. My experience is all with steam boilers, so that's why I feel comfortable doing things, but need to learn what must be done....

When lead pipe was still in vogue working on it became a different skill: I doubt there are many left that can still do it.

I would be willing to bet that your sewer gas leak has something to do with the lead pipe.

Getting the pipe out of your cast iron is not too hard, just take a drill and drill a lot of holes into the lead around the joint, them take a screwdriver or chisel and pry it out, if it wont come out drill more holes. To put in your new pipe get a donut gasket that fits the iron and the pvc; check the side of the iron fitting and look for letters, s v or xh, you will need them to get the right donut, luck.
 

rosenn

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Now we're getting somewhere. This is what I had suspected with my initial post, but perhaps I wasn't using the right terminology. You are confirming my suspicions, that this weak connection between lead soil pipe and closet flange, could be a source of sewer gas, and that it should be fixed. Next suspicion was that fixing it would be best handled by removing the lead back to the cast iron soil pipe. So it seems my original concerns are valid.

Question for Shacko, the Donut Gasket - what holds it in? Is it simply compression fit, and then partly expanded by the segment of PVC you push into it? Do you need Oakum? Plastic Lead?

Thanks,

N
 

Jadnashua

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The donut needs to be the right external diameter for the CI hub (then, you choose the diameter of the pipe for the middle). If it is, it will seal by just compression. You need to wire brush the inside of the hub first so it doesn't have much of any crud. There are a couple of common sizes of donuts, but they make them in about 1/16" increments since each foundry had their own idea of the proper size. Most places will carry two, and one will often work. CI was made in two 'classes' or types, 'normal' and heavy duty. The HD stuff has a larger ID. Fernco is the biggest maker of the things, and you can check their website for sizing. If it is too tight, you may never get it inserted with the pvc inside, or if it is too loose, it will leak.
 

rosenn

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Thanks - not going to wipe

after a websearch on wiping, the procedure does seem to be quite the art, and not used to attach the flange to the soil pipe. Fascinating how time has taken much of the Plumbum out of Plumbing.

How many folks would say that if there's a problem where my closet flange joins the lead elbow, I should remove that elbow back to the Cast Iron, rather than repair that connection, with soldering? That's be money question. Repair the connection of the closet-flange to lead soil pipe, or take it back to CI and replace with PVC all the way up to a new closet flange?
 

Terry

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I replace back to the cast iron hub.
A home owner could do that.
It takes a few hours and is pretty tedious work, but it looks nice when done.
I use an inside the hub rubber seal, and plastic pipe and fittings.
 

rosenn

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Thanks Terry, and everyone who's responded. I've searched this forum and this topic seems to come up quite frequently. I conclude that the best thing wil be to remove the lead closet bend back to the Cast Iron hub, and replace it with PVC joined to the CI with a donut compression gasket. I would use CI but have misplaced my running rope and caulking chisels, and am not interested in no-hub. I'll have to size the compression donut right, my CI termination is a 1/8th bend XH, OD measures 6", and ID 5.25". I'll get a better ID measurement when the brass nipple is out. I think the donuts come in 1/16" gradations, and once the nipple is out I can measure precisely with calipers. The job will wait unti I can pick up the 10" rough-in Aquia. Will update when job is done.
 

rosenn

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All fixed.

Hello all,

I fixed the problem. Not sure if the fact that I only had 11" for a regular 12" RI Aquia made a difference, but I had a spot for that toilet anyway. I did the following:

1. Bought the 10" rough-in version Aquia I
2. Removed the old Lead Closet bend back to the CI soil pipe
3. Ran 4" PVC from the Soil pipe, with a donut fitting, up to the bathroom, new closet flange with stainless steel ring
4. Installed new toilet

All better

Lessons learned:

1. Removing the brass nipple can be a pain, and there seems to be no quick way to do it. I did drill holes in the lead caulk, but still I had to spend a reasonable chunk of time with a chisel chipping this stuff out. I did use the sawzall to carefully slice out a section of the brass nipple, and then was able to get the lead out in essentially one piece. once you get ahead of it, it's easy. The oakum was really in there, but that I picked out with a bare sawzall wood blade by hand - made for a good pick to hook it and rake it out in pieces.

2. Getting a close nipple of 4" PVC into a Fernco Donut fitting into Cast Iron hub end is very, very difficult. All the posts say "lube it up and push hard". All the lube in the world (I was using dish soap on the outer surface of the PVC and inner surface of the donut, none on the outer surface of the donut) wasn't getting it to go. I tried every way to finagle the thing, no luck. I fashioned a jig out of two pieces of 2x4 to clamp around the XH hub end and another 2x4 to then crank down on the PVC nipple, pulling it into the donut. It worked like a charm, I cranked on one nut, then the other, to bring it in relatively straight. Building the jig took about 30 minutes of work and I had to run out and buy two pieces of 3/8" readibolt. Using the jig took 5 minutes to get the nipple cranked in. If you don't fix soil pipes every day, I would highly recommend something of the sort. I took a pic, and will try to post it here, but for some reason my pc isn't recognizing my camera card right now.

3. Lead closet bends are a bit more forgiving than PVC when it comes to fitting into narrow spaces. I had to widen the hole a bit, and had to chisel a hollow into a joist to make the hub of my 90-deg bend fit better. It did take some finessing to get it to fit nicely.

Glad the job is all done, and bathroom has no smell at all. Now to put my 12" aquia upstairs and get rid of one of my last two high-volume toilets.

Thanks everyone for your help. Now if I could just find my joint runner, yarning, and caulking chisels, I can get practicing on making real soil pipe joints before I have to do this again.

-N
 
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