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  1. #16
    DIY Member farmboy101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    Meaning he still needs the constant SFR gpm of the softener to be higher than the peak demand gpm of the shower for those minutes he has the water for it.
    Gary, are you saying that 1.5 cuft is too small or could be too small depending on the new shower configuration??

  2. #17
    DIY Member farmboy101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farmboy101 View Post
    Gary, are you saying that 1.5 cuft is too small or could be too small depending on the new shower configuration??
    Ok How about a 60,000 grain Fleck 5600 SXT 2 cuft? Opinions on Fleck 5600 SXT??

  3. #18
    In the Trades Wally Hays's Avatar
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    Running a 1.25 valve head ain't going to make any difference if the pipe feeding it and coming out of it is only 3/4", unless you can jack the pump pressure way up. I'm sorry I don't have the book or charts in front of me right now and yes, I suppose my statement is based on past experience but I'm sticking with it. If I think of it when I get home, maybe I'll hash through the numbers if I get a chance, but I'll bet it makes no difference.
    Perception is 3/4 of reality

  4. #19
    In the Trades Akpsdvan's Avatar
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    3/4 copper is only go to do so much.... That is the limiting factor in this.

    10 gpm is the best that one is really going to get to see with 3/4 copper..

    Then the other limit is the Well ... recovery at 2gpm is the other...

  5. #20
    In the Trades Wally Hays's Avatar
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    Thing is, if you want to really go deep into the subject, ( Uggggg) technically the plumbing code probably will call for a valve with an SFR large enough to handle the total load on the system. IE. full, flow at all fixtures at once, but the chances of that ever happening are pretty slim. Possible, but slim. Then when he puts in the big shower a sharp inspector would tell the plumber that he had to upsize the piping to handle the load. It makes no sense to install a huge valve when you don't have the piping to carry the load. And yes if the well recovery is only 2gpm there is a limiting factor also. Anyway unless we are just jabbering to hear ourselves jabber we should really be about giving the best advice possible and in that case I'm gonna go with a Clack WS-1 wit da 1" valve.
    Perception is 3/4 of reality

  6. #21
    DIY Senior Member Bob999's Avatar
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    My understanding is that the poster asked for advice whether to buy a 1 or 1.5 cubic foot softener--either with the Clack WS1 head. He noted that the price difference was only $61 different from the source he was considering using.

    I use 8 gal per minute per cubic foot of resin in sizing so if maximum water flow is greater than 8 gpm I would recommend the 1.5 cubic foot unit. Given the very limited water supply I don't see that it is reasonable to size for more that 12 gpm so I don't see much basis for going larger than 1.5 cubic foot. The final consideration, in my view, is whether 1.5 is too large given overall water use. My view is no given the planned installation of the ensuite facility.

  7. #22
    In the Trades Wally Hays's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    What constant SFR gpm do you use for a 1.0 cuft softener?

    What peak demand flow rate gpm do you think his new shower will have?

    There is a huge difference between what the new shower is designed to flow and what will actually come out of the shower heads. This is why a lot of folks are really dissapointed when they install that huge pie pan shower head and only get a dribble of water from it. You need to supply the shower valve and shower heads with their rated volume and pressure to get the full performance from the equipment and that varies by manufacturer and design. Just because you have 2 shower heads does not necessarily mean that you are flowing a whole lot of gpm. The shower heads may be low volume water savers. There are a lot of factors that come into play. When the house is new construction, it's a lot easier to control the variables be proper pipe sizing and proper volume and supply pressure. It get's a lot messier when the house has been ther for 50 years or so and has a mish mash of plumbing in it that may or may not have been properly sized in the beginning. And when someone wants to upgrade their shower on a remodel, it takes some fancy talking to convince them that they need to re-pipe the whole house. Of course most DIY'ers don't really know anything at all about pipe sizing, volume, pressure and such and go right ahead and hook on to the existing 1/2 copper that was already run up the wall. Often with less than stellar results. It's why we get paid the big bucks.
    Perception is 3/4 of reality

  8. #23
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farmboy101 View Post
    Gary, are you saying that 1.5 cuft is too small or could be too small depending on the new shower configuration??
    If your peak demand is higher than 12 gpm, yes, a 1.5 cuft is too small because it has a constant SFR of 12 gpm. For any more on than that you'll have to call me so we can come up with your peak demand gpm.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  9. #24
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farmboy101 View Post
    Ok How about a 60,000 grain Fleck 5600 SXT 2 cuft? Opinions on Fleck 5600 SXT??
    You can use a Clack WS-1 CS on any size softener you could need, so why go with a Fleck?
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  10. #25
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wally Hays View Post
    Running a 1.25 valve head ain't going to make any difference if the pipe feeding it and coming out of it is only 3/4", unless you can jack the pump pressure way up. I'm sorry I don't have the book or charts in front of me right now and yes, I suppose my statement is based on past experience but I'm sticking with it. If I think of it when I get home, maybe I'll hash through the numbers if I get a chance, but I'll bet it makes no difference.
    My guess is that you are replying to me but who said anything about going to a 1.25" control valve?

    Since you don't know this stuff without looking up charts, maybe you shoudn't guess at these things, it's not helping the OP.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  11. #26
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wally Hays View Post
    There is a huge difference between what the new shower is designed to flow and what will actually come out of the shower heads. This is why a lot of folks are really dissapointed when they install that huge pie pan shower head and only get a dribble of water from it. You need to supply the shower valve and shower heads with their rated volume and pressure to get the full performance from the equipment and that varies by manufacturer and design. Just because you have 2 shower heads does not necessarily mean that you are flowing a whole lot of gpm. The shower heads may be low volume water savers. There are a lot of factors that come into play. When the house is new construction, it's a lot easier to control the variables be proper pipe sizing and proper volume and supply pressure. It get's a lot messier when the house has been ther for 50 years or so and has a mish mash of plumbing in it that may or may not have been properly sized in the beginning. And when someone wants to upgrade their shower on a remodel, it takes some fancy talking to convince them that they need to re-pipe the whole house. Of course most DIY'ers don't really know anything at all about pipe sizing, volume, pressure and such and go right ahead and hook on to the existing 1/2 copper that was already run up the wall. Often with less than stellar results. It's why we get paid the big bucks.
    He has a well running at 30/50 psi with 3/4" plumbing and you're jumping to him having to replumb the whole house to add this shower.... I don't think anything we've heard yet supports that.

    And you still haven't answered the questions. What constant SFR gpm do you use for a 1.0 cuft softener?

    What peak demand flow rate gpm do you think his new shower will have?
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  12. #27
    In the Trades Wally Hays's Avatar
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    I have no clue what peak demand his new shower will have because I have no clue who makes the shower valve and shower heads. Please take the time to more thouroghly read the post before you jump all over people. Had you taken the time to read, you would have noted that I did not recommend re-piping the house at all. What I said was "It get's a lot messier when the house has been ther for 50 years or so and has a mish mash of plumbing in it that may or may not have been properly sized in the beginning. And when someone wants to upgrade their shower on a remodel, it takes some fancy talking to convince them that they need to re-pipe the whole house.

    You seem to want to argue this point for some reason. I can not give him any sort of accurate SFR without knowing exactly what is going on and in his house and if you have been in the business for 13 years you should know that. I can come close and I'm pretty sure my recommendation does just that but this is one of those reasons why sometimes it's better to have someone that knows what they are doing, come out to the house and check things out. Be happy I recommended that he go with a Clack Valve, maybe he will buy it from you

    Oh yea, almost forgot. Without knowing the pressure drop or the exact model I generally would put the SFR somewhere between 6 and 10.
    Last edited by Wally Hays; 04-29-2010 at 04:17 AM.
    Perception is 3/4 of reality

  13. #28
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wally Hays View Post
    I have no clue what peak demand his new shower will have because I have no clue who makes the shower valve and shower heads.

    Please take the time to more thouroghly read the post before you jump all over people. You seem to want to argue this point for some reason.
    Then take the worst case, highest gpm fixtures and add them up. You sound as if you don't remember that he has already told us 2-3 body sprays and the big shower head. I can do it and I'm not a Master Plumber. You seem to be forgetting that he said 2-3 body sprays and a big brand named showerhead.

    That is why I am wondering why you are disagreeing with me, and now saying you can't come up with a number; and why you are suggesting a 1.0 cuft softener while the rest of us are saying a 1.5 cuft. And you call it arguing while I call it clarifying and discussing what you have suggested and advised the OP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wally Hays View Post
    Oh yea, almost forgot. Without knowing the pressure drop or the exact model I generally would put the SFR somewhere between 6 and 10.
    Pressure drop of what, his softener will be just after the pressure tank so it will not see a pressure drop but... the constant SFR of a 1.0 cuft softener is 9 gpm, and you are guessing maybe he needs 10 gpm constant SFR. If you go with Bob999, he says 8 gpm/cuft.

    Or are you talking peak demand flow at the shower instead of the SFR of the softener? If you are, I see 3 * 2.5 gpm for the sprays plus at least 2.5 for the shower head and that comes up to 10 gpm just when the shower is running. And if a toilet is flushed or a sink is used at the same time, then your 1.0 cuft softner is too small.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  14. #29
    In the Trades Wally Hays's Avatar
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    You are still stuck on what his shower head is potentially capable of and not what he will actually get out of it.

    You must have me confused with someone else because I don't think I did recommend a 1.0 cu/ft unit. What I did say is that I do not believer an 1.25 inlet head will be needed.
    Perception is 3/4 of reality

  15. #30
    DIY Senior Member Bob999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farmboy101 View Post
    Aquatell Canada sell a 30,000 1cuft with the Clack WS1($699) and a 45,000 1.5cuft Clack WS1($759). The 45,000 is $61 more. Would that be overkill or would it allow extra capacity if the tub and shower were used concurrently?? I will have to check to make sure the Clack WS1 they supply is the CS but their descripion sounds like it " full 1" internal ported electronic control" Yes??
    All Clack WS-1 valves are internal 1". The difference between the various versions of the WS-1 (CS, EE) is in the electronic control and how the valve is programmed. The EE version is, in my opinion, as good as or better than the CS version--the differences are in how the programmer (the homeowner if it is a DIY installion) inputs the programming parameters. Actually the EE version allows some flexibility in programming not available on the CS version.

    For a softener I would not recommend the TC (time clock) version of the valve because it doesn't count gallons.

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