Water softener selection help

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chris1044

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Ok,

So back on track after that slight derailment....

A 1.5 cu ft (60k grain) resin tank should work for my situation, and will likely have to regenerate every 4 days. Assuming info in this thread is correct, I'll go through roughly 31 bags of salt a year with 4 people in the home (which won't be for a few years).

What can one do to make the whole system more efficient to use less salt? Perhaps I'm asking too many questions, but I'd like to know how all this works since I'm spending some decent amounts of $$. After all that talk about dilution/resin beds being packed/twin tanks being pointless for normal home use (right?) I'm more confused than I was last night about this....

To recap, I want an efficient softener that regens as little as possible. Two people using it right now, will expand to four 5 years down the road. Water hardness of 30, 2ppm iron, 3/4" CPVC inlet/main feed from well pump to softener (and I'm going to try and find flow rate at gal/min later tonite).


Thanks for the responses thus far...very appreciated!
 

Bob999

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Bob, none of those sites sell the CS version.

One site of the three doesn't sell anything with a Clack WS-1 on it.
True. I am not aware that the poster has decided on a particular brand or model of control head. I personally think the EE version is every bit as good as the CS version of the Clack valve.

All three use a chart for sizing that is useless and causes the customer to use the max salt dose lbs for the cuft volume of resin and the K of capacity they suggest. That gives their customers very poor salt efficiency.

Good information is available elsewhere. I posted the sites as price comparisons.

IIRC only one of the two selling the Clack WS-1 EE tells their customer how to get into the dealer's side of the programming where 98% of all the programming is done. That means the customer uses the default settigs which do not match the K of capacity on their sizing chart.

Manuals with all that information are available on the Clack website.

One of the two selling the Clack WS-1 EE has higher prices than my price for the same size but they do not include everything that I do.

Well if you include everything they do and more you should compare very favorably if someone is doing price comparisons. Last time I looked your website was very sparse in listing what you sell for what price.



The other one that sells the Clack WS-1 EE has a lower price for the same size but again, they too do not inlude everything that I do.

If you were trying to help the OP you've failed IMO.

I was trying to provide the OP with information. Not sell him a softener. I think I succeeded in providing information. It is up to the reader to decide what to do with it.

Here is a link to one of those sites' sizing chart. IIRC all three use the same chart; I know that the two selling the Clack WS-1 EE do.

http://www.discountwatersofteners.com/Articles.asp?ID=127

I have posted responses above.
 
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Bob999

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What can one do to make the whole system more efficient to use less salt? Perhaps I'm asking too many questions, but I'd like to know how all this works since I'm spending some decent amounts of $$. After all that talk about dilution/resin beds being packed/twin tanks being pointless for normal home use (right?) I'm more confused than I was last night about this....

To recap, I want an efficient softener that regens as little as possible. Two people using it right now, will expand to four 5 years down the road. Water hardness of 30, 2ppm iron, 3/4" CPVC inlet/main feed from well pump to softener (and I'm going to try and find flow rate at gal/min later tonite).


Thanks for the responses thus far...very appreciated!

In order to maintain the resin and provide long life regular regeneration is essential. With iron I recommend regeneration every 4 days. If you accept that as a given then there are two things you can do to get high salt efficiency:

1. Use a more salt efficient resin--Purolite SST-60;
2. Size the quantity of resin so that you are using only a fraction of the potential maximum capacity

Here is a link to technical information on Purolite SST-60 risin:

http://www.caitechnologies.com/images/PDFs/specs/SST60.pdf

If you look at page 4 you will see that SST-60 resin is more salt efficient than regular resin and that higher salt efficiency is obtained at lower salt dose--but lower salt dose regenerates a smaller fraction of the maximum potential capacity of the resin so a larger quantity of resin is needed if regeneration is done every 4 days. If 5 lbs/ft3 of resin salt dose is used the efficiency is 4000 grains per pound of salt with SST-60. On the other hand if 15 lbs/ft3 of resin is used the efficiency is 2073 grains per lb of salt with SST-60.
 

chris1044

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In order to maintain the resin and provide long life regular regeneration is essential. With iron I recommend regeneration every 4 days. If you accept that as a given then there are two things you can do to get high salt efficiency:

1. Use a more salt efficient resin--Purolite SST-60;
2. Size the quantity of resin so that you are using only a fraction of the potential maximum capacity


Here is a link to technical information on Purolite SST-60 risin:

http://www.caitechnologies.com/images/PDFs/specs/SST60.pdf

If you look at page 4 you will see that SST-60 resin is more salt efficient than regular resin and that higher salt efficiency is obtained at lower salt dose--but lower salt dose regenerates a smaller fraction of the maximum potential capacity of the resin so a larger quantity of resin is needed if regeneration is done every 4 days. If 5 lbs/ft3 of resin salt dose is used the efficiency is 4000 grains per pound of salt with SST-60. On the other hand if 15 lbs/ft3 of resin is used the efficiency is 2073 grains per lb of salt with SST-60.

I think the general concensus from everyone is with the iron I have regen every 4 days. That's fine - I'd rather regen and have it last then skimp to save salt/water. That said, the data you linked does show that the Purolite SST-60 is more efficient - which softeners have this resin?
 

Akpsdvan

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Most likely when ordering any system one might have a choice of resin... if not then find some a company that would let you make that choice, it might cost a little more but that would be your call.
 

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I think the general concensus from everyone is with the iron I have regen every 4 days. That's fine - I'd rather regen and have it last then skimp to save salt/water. That said, the data you linked does show that the Purolite SST-60 is more efficient - which softeners have this resin?

Here is a link to one company that lists SST-60 resin as an option:

http://www.ohiopurewaterco.com/shop/customer/home.php

Virtually any company selling water softeners should be able to provide it upon request.
 

Gary Slusser

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True. I am not aware that the poster has decided on a particular brand or model of control head. I personally think the EE version is every bit as good as the CS version of the Clack valve.

Last time I looked your website was very sparse in listing what you sell for what price.
Yes he has said a Clack WS-1 CS.

My 6+ years experience with the Clack WS-1 is that the CS version is a much better choice for a DIYer.

What is your experience with those two different versions?
 

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I think the general concensus from everyone is with the iron I have regen every 4 days. That's fine - I'd rather regen and have it last then skimp to save salt/water. That said, the data you linked does show that the Purolite SST-60 is more efficient - which softeners have this resin?
I do not agree with 4 day regeneration unless the size of the softner dictates it. If you have IRB and enough to have to treat it, the iron will be removed and the softener will not have to deal with it. So you would need 26K for an 8 day service run. With the iron 34K. A 2.0 cuft covers that and has the flexibility for a family of 4 and gives you 13 gpm constant SFR. If the 13 gpm is not high enough, you have to go to a 2.5 cuft or larger. Although any dealer can sell SST-60 (I do with 4-5 ppm or more iron), you don't need SST-60 or fine mesh resin with their increased cost and you won't need a Turbulator or a Res Up feeder etc.. If you used a Turbulator you can't have a gravel underbed and gravel with your 2 ppm of iron is a better choice.

With iron you don't want to try to get higher capacity or salt efficiency by buying SST-60 resin and even if you got both, you'll never recover the additional cost.
 

chris1044

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I do not agree with 4 day regeneration unless the size of the softner dictates it. If you have IRB and enough to have to treat it, the iron will be removed and the softener will not have to deal with it. So you would need 26K for an 8 day service run. With the iron 34K. A 2.0 cuft covers that and has the flexibility for a family of 4 and gives you 13 gpm constant SFR. If the 13 gpm is not high enough, you have to go to a 2.5 cuft or larger. Although any dealer can sell SST-60 (I do with 4-5 ppm or more iron), you don't need SST-60 or fine mesh resin with their increased cost and you won't need a Turbulator or a Res Up feeder etc.. If you used a Turbulator you can't have a gravel underbed and gravel with your 2 ppm of iron is a better choice.

With iron you don't want to try to get higher capacity or salt efficiency by buying SST-60 resin and even if you got both, you'll never recover the additional cost.

I'm lost now....so you're saying I only need 26k grain capacity for an 8 day regen? 34k capacity to accomidate for the iron? I was thinking I'd need something in the neighborhood of 60k - was actually considering a single tank 60k model with a clack WS-1....I don't think I'll need anything over a 13gpm flow rate. The home has 3/4" cpvc, and I don't plan to redo everything any time soon; the inlet line may increase to 1" to assist with back flushing the unit, but after the softener it's going to stay the 3/4" that's in the home now...
 

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If you have IRB and enough to have to treat it, the iron will be removed and the softener will not have to deal with it.

I think that Chris has concluded that he does not have iron reducing bacteria. It is unclear why you are making this point.

"The culligan man said iron bacteria as opposed to sulfur, but the wolverine man said it was sulfur; I'll be sure to have a third opinion pitched to me tomorrow."

"Tonite the Kinetico salesman came out.... He said our hardness was at 27 gpg, which is inline with what the culligan man said at 25. I'm calling it a wash between all three and going to say it's 30 gpg, so I'm oversized as opposed to undersized. He also said my iron was at 2ppm."

"I'm going to say that my compensated hardness is 38 - this is derived from 30gpg average hardness and then 2ppm iron * 4 "
 

chris1044

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I think that Chris has concluded that he does not have iron reducing bacteria. It is unclear why you are making this point.

"The culligan man said iron bacteria as opposed to sulfur, but the wolverine man said it was sulfur; I'll be sure to have a third opinion pitched to me tomorrow."

"Tonite the Kinetico salesman came out.... He said our hardness was at 27 gpg, which is inline with what the culligan man said at 25. I'm calling it a wash between all three and going to say it's 30 gpg, so I'm oversized as opposed to undersized. He also said my iron was at 2ppm."

"I'm going to say that my compensated hardness is 38 - this is derived from 30gpg average hardness and then 2ppm iron * 4 "

As I have...The water is approximatley 30gpg hardness. It has 2ppm iron in it, with a little bit of "iron" smell. It does not smell like sulfur, nor did any of the analysis detect hydrosulfuric gas (or whatever the chem name is that causes rotten egg smell). Furthermore, there isn't any slime build up anywhere, but there is iron build up in the toilet tanks (and in the bowls if they go uncleaned long enough). I have no arsenic, little nitrates, and a fairly high disolves solid count at somewhere around 350-400.

Softenere will be used for 2 people for the next 3-5 years, then children will be in the picture. The home has 2.5 baths, a standard washer/laundry room sink, and standard kitchen items. Dishwasher and fridge take water, dishwasher is high efficiency as its new.

So, based off the above information, what would the best recommendation for someone with a 1000-1200 budget range be? I'm simply looking for something that will last more than 5 years without hassle, and doesn't use a ton of salt. If I wanted something I had to fix every 3-4 years, I'd buy a kenmore....in doing research on this, I'm hoping to get 10+ years of hassle free use out of the system.
 

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Clack WS-1 metered or a Fleck 5600 unmetered. God, stay away from Big box store crap. You will not spend much money but you will do it often.
 

Bob999

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As I have...The water is approximatley 30gpg hardness. It has 2ppm iron in it, with a little bit of "iron" smell. It does not smell like sulfur, nor did any of the analysis detect hydrosulfuric gas (or whatever the chem name is that causes rotten egg smell). Furthermore, there isn't any slime build up anywhere, but there is iron build up in the toilet tanks (and in the bowls if they go uncleaned long enough). I have no arsenic, little nitrates, and a fairly high disolves solid count at somewhere around 350-400.

Softenere will be used for 2 people for the next 3-5 years, then children will be in the picture. The home has 2.5 baths, a standard washer/laundry room sink, and standard kitchen items. Dishwasher and fridge take water, dishwasher is high efficiency as its new.

So, based off the above information, what would the best recommendation for someone with a 1000-1200 budget range be? I'm simply looking for something that will last more than 5 years without hassle, and doesn't use a ton of salt. If I wanted something I had to fix every 3-4 years, I'd buy a kenmore....in doing research on this, I'm hoping to get 10+ years of hassle free use out of the system.

A system with either a Fleck of Clack valve can be expected to provide long term trouble free service (not guaranteed as noted in other posts but I believe one of these offers the best chance of achieving your goals).

I will add to what I posted previously--use of SST-60 resin and sizing the amount of resin to ensure regeneration is only a fraction of max capacity--you could chose a twin tank system to further increase salt efficiency. As a practical matter you will be limited to a Fleck valve if you go with a twin in your stated price range.

If you go with a single tank system then either a Fleck or Clack valve should meet your stated requirements. I consider the Fleck 7000 and the Clack WS-1 basically comparable (not identical) and because most on line dealers sell the Fleck for about $40 less I would go with the Fleck 7000 if using a single tank system. Such a system can be purchased online with 1.5 ft3 of SST-60 resin for less than $700 delivered. Alternatively, you could purchase a 1.5 ft3/tank Fleck 9100 Twin with SST-60 resin from an online dealer for about $1200 delivered.
 

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If you go with a single tank system then either a Fleck or Clack valve should meet your stated requirements. I consider the Fleck 7000 and the Clack WS-1 basically comparable (not identical) and because most on line dealers sell the Fleck for about $40 less I would go with the Fleck 7000 if using a single tank system. Such a system can be purchased online with 1.5 ft3 of SST-60 resin for less than $700 delivered. Alternatively, you could purchase a 1.5 ft3/tank Fleck 9100 Twin with SST-60 resin from an online dealer for about $1200 delivered.


Is there really any benifit for a twin tank set up in my situation? Longevity? I don't need water 24/7, and because of that, I can't see any real reason to upgrade. Additionally, if I get different resin, how does one go about changing that himself...remember, I'm a noob here....any qualms with an Fleck 7000 SXT?
 

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I'm lost now....so you're saying I only need 26k grain capacity for an 8 day regen? 34k capacity to accomidate for the iron? I was thinking I'd need something in the neighborhood of 60k - was actually considering a single tank 60k model with a clack WS-1....I don't think I'll need anything over a 13gpm flow rate. The home has 3/4" cpvc, and I don't plan to redo everything any time soon; the inlet line may increase to 1" to assist with back flushing the unit, but after the softener it's going to stay the 3/4" that's in the home now...
You need 26K of regenerated capacity without the iron and 34K with the iron, to go on average 8 days between regenerations based on gallons and calendar override. Not as you are thinking a 26K softener.

To do that yes, you will need a 2.0 cuft (64K as most guys incorrectly call them). Have you been to my sizing and calculator pages on my web site? All this is exlained there.

You would use 8 lbs and 10.5 lbs for the 26K or 34K and I would tell you how to use a comon product to clean the iron/rust out of the resin bedand control valve periodically. I've been sizing softeners on iron of up to 5 ppm this way for 20+ years, using regular mesh resin.

You don't need to pay a premium price for 2.0 cuft of SST-60 or a Turbulator distributor tube and give up a gravel underbed. My delivered price is under $850 including 50' of drain line, the Clack wrench and a test kit with a result of hard or soft water based on 0-1 gpg of hardness. Plus you get me, my instructions and free phone support. You have to call me to order it because it is not on my dinky little web site because I don't like guys buying until they talk to me and anyone ordering on my site gets an email saying I am holding the order until we talk. That's so they don't buy something they don't need or is too small for their needs. And if they disagree, I refund their money and they can go somewhere else and buy whatever.

Bob999, in a previous post Chris has said; If a softener with a Clack WS1 will handle the iron, then I'm all about doing it myself. Here he is saying: was actually considering a single tank 60k model with a clack WS-1.
 

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I think there is agreement that there is iron and I was under the impression that Gary Slusser recommended regeneration at 4 day intervals with 2 ppm iron. Now he seems to be saying 8 day regeneration with iron.

What ever Gary's view is my view is that you would be better served regenerating at 4 day intervals with your iron.

As to your question about needing a twin tank system--no you do not need it. I listed it because you at one point said you wanted the most salt efficient system and a twin tank system would marginally increase the salt efficiency. As to SST-60 resin--it is not necessary either but it is a better resin with iron and it gives better salt efficiency--which you expressed an interest in.

Most water softeners purchased from online sources are actually shipped by the same wholesaler--Nelson Corp with shipping points at three locations around the country. The standard package ships the head, tank(s) and resin separately and includes a funnel for the purchaser to load the resin in the tank.

So to recap if you want to minimize your initial investment a 1.5 cubic foot unit that is set up to regenerate every 4 days with a Fleck 7000 head and standard resin purchased from an on line supplier will, in my opinion, meet your needs and provide a system that can reasonably be expected to provide long and trouble free service. If you are interested in improving salt efficiency over the standard package then I recommend SST-60 resin.
 

Gary Slusser

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I will add to what I posted previously--use of SST-60 resin and sizing the amount of resin to ensure regeneration is only a fraction of max capacity--you could chose a twin tank system to further increase salt efficiency. As a practical matter you will be limited to a Fleck valve if you go with a twin in your stated price range.
Please state the total volume of salt used in lbs on an 8 day basis in the twin tank type sofftener that you suggest would get better salt efficiency.

And compare it to my 8 or 10.5 lbs in my two tank softener that you call a single tank.

Also are you aware of the twin Clack set up? How about the Fleck TwinFlo 100e and its all but unique feature of purging the tank in standby before it goes online to get rid of the stagnant water in it? A Clack twin does that too. No other twin control valve does; including Kinetico.

I consider the Fleck 7000 and the Clack WS-1 basically comparable (not identical) and because most on line dealers sell the Fleck for about $40 less I would go with the Fleck 7000 if using a single tank system.
Obviously you have not torn the two apart as if you had to repair the seals and piston Bob or you wouldn't be suggesting the 7000 to a DIYer or saying that it is comparable to the Clack WS-1. Plus there are features the 7000 does not have that the Clack WS-1 does have; especially the CS version of the Clack WS-1. Can you list those features or are you not aware of them?
 
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