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Thread: Water softener selection help

  1. #16
    DIY Senior Member Bob999's Avatar
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    I share your thinking that up flow regeneration is more efficient, or at least has the potential to be more efficient, than down flow regeneration. The reason is that the brine moves directly into the resin rather than having to move down through the 18" or so of water at the top of the tank --with resulting dilution of the brine--that happens with down flow regeneration.

    That said down flow regeneration is the most widely used approach in the US and most internet Sellers of softeners don't even list up flow regenerating softeners on their sales pages. I am a firm believer of staying in the mainstream with equipment so while I think up flow regeneration has some technical advantages I don't recommend.

  2. #17
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob999 View Post
    I share your thinking that up flow regeneration is more efficient, or at least has the potential to be more efficient, than down flow regeneration. The reason is that the brine moves directly into the resin rather than having to move down through the 18" or so of water at the top of the tank --with resulting dilution of the brine--that happens with down flow regeneration.

    That said down flow regeneration is the most widely used approach in the US and most internet Sellers of softeners don't even list up flow regenerating softeners on their sales pages. I am a firm believer of staying in the mainstream with equipment so while I think up flow regeneration has some technical advantages I don't recommend.
    Dilution is caused by the slow rinse water flow that creates the vacuum needed to suck/lift heavy brine water into the resin bed and it is diluted more because of the water in the tank. Which is the same as down flow and the water above the resin.

    UPflow brining's benefit is to more fully regenerate the resin in the bottom of the column of resin (bottom of the tank) which the water goes through last on it's way to being used, it is done that way to limit/control leakage of hardness for certain manufacturing requirements, not to save salt/increaqse salt efficiency.

    If UPflow is said to be good, you could likewise say, which no one does, that downflow brining treats the water at the top of the column of resin and prevents used capacity in the lower part of the cloumn of resin.

    And potential doesn't count, you get what you get.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
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    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  3. #18
    In the Trades Akpsdvan's Avatar
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    Up Flow regeneration will work when the resin bed stays Packed.. even with the up flow brine action will unpack the resin bed and let brine get past resin with out full recharging taking place.

    Even if there is what is called an upper basket in the softener that is not enough to keep the resin bed from unpacking while in brine rinse mode.

    The Water Boss and Water Max are the only ones that I know of that have in the tank a screen on top and bottom of the resin to hold it in place while the brine/rinse is going on , thus keeping the resin bed packed.

  4. #19
    DIY Senior Member Bob999's Avatar
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    Here are 3 web sites that sell both a variety of softeners and have very good prices. I have no connection with any of these sites and am providing the addresses for your information.

    http://www.ohiopurewaterco.com/shop/customer/home.php

    http://www.qualitywaterforless.com/

    http://www.discountwatersofteners.com/default.asp

  5. #20
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob999 View Post
    Here are 3 web sites that sell both a variety of softeners and have very good prices. I have no connection with any of these sites and am providing the addresses for your information.

    http://www.ohiopurewaterco.com/shop/customer/home.php

    http://www.qualitywaterforless.com/

    http://www.discountwatersofteners.com/default.asp
    Bob, none of those sites sell the CS version.

    One site of the three doesn't sell anything with a Clack WS-1 on it.

    All three use a chart for sizing that is useless and causes the customer to use the max salt dose lbs for the cuft volume of resin and the K of capacity they suggest. That gives their customers very poor salt efficiency.

    IIRC only one of the two selling the Clack WS-1 EE tells their customer how to get into the dealer's side of the programming where 98% of all the programming is done. That means the customer uses the default settigs which do not match the K of capacity on their sizing chart.

    One of the two selling the Clack WS-1 EE has higher prices than my price for the same size but they do not include everything that I do.

    The other one that sells the Clack WS-1 EE has a lower price for the same size but again, they too do not inlude everything that I do.

    If you were trying to help the OP you've failed IMO.

    Here is a link to one of those sites' sizing chart. IIRC all three use the same chart; I know that the two selling the Clack WS-1 EE do.

    http://www.discountwatersofteners.co...les.asp?ID=127
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  6. #21
    DIY Junior Member chris1044's Avatar
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    Ok,

    So back on track after that slight derailment....

    A 1.5 cu ft (60k grain) resin tank should work for my situation, and will likely have to regenerate every 4 days. Assuming info in this thread is correct, I'll go through roughly 31 bags of salt a year with 4 people in the home (which won't be for a few years).

    What can one do to make the whole system more efficient to use less salt? Perhaps I'm asking too many questions, but I'd like to know how all this works since I'm spending some decent amounts of $$. After all that talk about dilution/resin beds being packed/twin tanks being pointless for normal home use (right?) I'm more confused than I was last night about this....

    To recap, I want an efficient softener that regens as little as possible. Two people using it right now, will expand to four 5 years down the road. Water hardness of 30, 2ppm iron, 3/4" CPVC inlet/main feed from well pump to softener (and I'm going to try and find flow rate at gal/min later tonite).


    Thanks for the responses thus far...very appreciated!

  7. #22
    DIY Senior Member Bob999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    Bob, none of those sites sell the CS version.

    One site of the three doesn't sell anything with a Clack WS-1 on it.
    True. I am not aware that the poster has decided on a particular brand or model of control head. I personally think the EE version is every bit as good as the CS version of the Clack valve.

    All three use a chart for sizing that is useless and causes the customer to use the max salt dose lbs for the cuft volume of resin and the K of capacity they suggest. That gives their customers very poor salt efficiency.

    Good information is available elsewhere. I posted the sites as price comparisons.

    IIRC only one of the two selling the Clack WS-1 EE tells their customer how to get into the dealer's side of the programming where 98% of all the programming is done. That means the customer uses the default settigs which do not match the K of capacity on their sizing chart.

    Manuals with all that information are available on the Clack website.

    One of the two selling the Clack WS-1 EE has higher prices than my price for the same size but they do not include everything that I do.

    Well if you include everything they do and more you should compare very favorably if someone is doing price comparisons. Last time I looked your website was very sparse in listing what you sell for what price.



    The other one that sells the Clack WS-1 EE has a lower price for the same size but again, they too do not inlude everything that I do.

    If you were trying to help the OP you've failed IMO.

    I was trying to provide the OP with information. Not sell him a softener. I think I succeeded in providing information. It is up to the reader to decide what to do with it.

    Here is a link to one of those sites' sizing chart. IIRC all three use the same chart; I know that the two selling the Clack WS-1 EE do.

    http://www.discountwatersofteners.co...les.asp?ID=127
    I have posted responses above.
    Last edited by Bob999; 04-28-2010 at 04:37 PM. Reason: correct spelling

  8. #23
    DIY Senior Member Bob999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris1044 View Post
    A 1.5 cu ft (60k grain) resin tank should work for my situation, !
    A 1.5 ft3 softener is generally referred to as 45k or 48k grains. A 60k softener is 2 ft3.

  9. #24
    DIY Senior Member Bob999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris1044 View Post
    What can one do to make the whole system more efficient to use less salt? Perhaps I'm asking too many questions, but I'd like to know how all this works since I'm spending some decent amounts of $$. After all that talk about dilution/resin beds being packed/twin tanks being pointless for normal home use (right?) I'm more confused than I was last night about this....

    To recap, I want an efficient softener that regens as little as possible. Two people using it right now, will expand to four 5 years down the road. Water hardness of 30, 2ppm iron, 3/4" CPVC inlet/main feed from well pump to softener (and I'm going to try and find flow rate at gal/min later tonite).


    Thanks for the responses thus far...very appreciated!
    In order to maintain the resin and provide long life regular regeneration is essential. With iron I recommend regeneration every 4 days. If you accept that as a given then there are two things you can do to get high salt efficiency:

    1. Use a more salt efficient resin--Purolite SST-60;
    2. Size the quantity of resin so that you are using only a fraction of the potential maximum capacity

    Here is a link to technical information on Purolite SST-60 risin:

    http://www.caitechnologies.com/image...pecs/SST60.pdf

    If you look at page 4 you will see that SST-60 resin is more salt efficient than regular resin and that higher salt efficiency is obtained at lower salt dose--but lower salt dose regenerates a smaller fraction of the maximum potential capacity of the resin so a larger quantity of resin is needed if regeneration is done every 4 days. If 5 lbs/ft3 of resin salt dose is used the efficiency is 4000 grains per pound of salt with SST-60. On the other hand if 15 lbs/ft3 of resin is used the efficiency is 2073 grains per lb of salt with SST-60.

  10. #25
    DIY Junior Member chris1044's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob999 View Post
    In order to maintain the resin and provide long life regular regeneration is essential. With iron I recommend regeneration every 4 days. If you accept that as a given then there are two things you can do to get high salt efficiency:

    1. Use a more salt efficient resin--Purolite SST-60;
    2. Size the quantity of resin so that you are using only a fraction of the potential maximum capacity


    Here is a link to technical information on Purolite SST-60 risin:

    http://www.caitechnologies.com/image...pecs/SST60.pdf

    If you look at page 4 you will see that SST-60 resin is more salt efficient than regular resin and that higher salt efficiency is obtained at lower salt dose--but lower salt dose regenerates a smaller fraction of the maximum potential capacity of the resin so a larger quantity of resin is needed if regeneration is done every 4 days. If 5 lbs/ft3 of resin salt dose is used the efficiency is 4000 grains per pound of salt with SST-60. On the other hand if 15 lbs/ft3 of resin is used the efficiency is 2073 grains per lb of salt with SST-60.
    I think the general concensus from everyone is with the iron I have regen every 4 days. That's fine - I'd rather regen and have it last then skimp to save salt/water. That said, the data you linked does show that the Purolite SST-60 is more efficient - which softeners have this resin?

  11. #26
    In the Trades Akpsdvan's Avatar
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    Most likely when ordering any system one might have a choice of resin... if not then find some a company that would let you make that choice, it might cost a little more but that would be your call.

  12. #27
    DIY Senior Member Bob999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris1044 View Post
    I think the general concensus from everyone is with the iron I have regen every 4 days. That's fine - I'd rather regen and have it last then skimp to save salt/water. That said, the data you linked does show that the Purolite SST-60 is more efficient - which softeners have this resin?
    Here is a link to one company that lists SST-60 resin as an option:

    http://www.ohiopurewaterco.com/shop/customer/home.php

    Virtually any company selling water softeners should be able to provide it upon request.

  13. #28
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob999 View Post
    True. I am not aware that the poster has decided on a particular brand or model of control head. I personally think the EE version is every bit as good as the CS version of the Clack valve.

    Last time I looked your website was very sparse in listing what you sell for what price.
    Yes he has said a Clack WS-1 CS.

    My 6+ years experience with the Clack WS-1 is that the CS version is a much better choice for a DIYer.

    What is your experience with those two different versions?
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  14. #29
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris1044 View Post
    I think the general concensus from everyone is with the iron I have regen every 4 days. That's fine - I'd rather regen and have it last then skimp to save salt/water. That said, the data you linked does show that the Purolite SST-60 is more efficient - which softeners have this resin?
    I do not agree with 4 day regeneration unless the size of the softner dictates it. If you have IRB and enough to have to treat it, the iron will be removed and the softener will not have to deal with it. So you would need 26K for an 8 day service run. With the iron 34K. A 2.0 cuft covers that and has the flexibility for a family of 4 and gives you 13 gpm constant SFR. If the 13 gpm is not high enough, you have to go to a 2.5 cuft or larger. Although any dealer can sell SST-60 (I do with 4-5 ppm or more iron), you don't need SST-60 or fine mesh resin with their increased cost and you won't need a Turbulator or a Res Up feeder etc.. If you used a Turbulator you can't have a gravel underbed and gravel with your 2 ppm of iron is a better choice.

    With iron you don't want to try to get higher capacity or salt efficiency by buying SST-60 resin and even if you got both, you'll never recover the additional cost.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  15. #30
    DIY Junior Member chris1044's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    I do not agree with 4 day regeneration unless the size of the softner dictates it. If you have IRB and enough to have to treat it, the iron will be removed and the softener will not have to deal with it. So you would need 26K for an 8 day service run. With the iron 34K. A 2.0 cuft covers that and has the flexibility for a family of 4 and gives you 13 gpm constant SFR. If the 13 gpm is not high enough, you have to go to a 2.5 cuft or larger. Although any dealer can sell SST-60 (I do with 4-5 ppm or more iron), you don't need SST-60 or fine mesh resin with their increased cost and you won't need a Turbulator or a Res Up feeder etc.. If you used a Turbulator you can't have a gravel underbed and gravel with your 2 ppm of iron is a better choice.

    With iron you don't want to try to get higher capacity or salt efficiency by buying SST-60 resin and even if you got both, you'll never recover the additional cost.
    I'm lost now....so you're saying I only need 26k grain capacity for an 8 day regen? 34k capacity to accomidate for the iron? I was thinking I'd need something in the neighborhood of 60k - was actually considering a single tank 60k model with a clack WS-1....I don't think I'll need anything over a 13gpm flow rate. The home has 3/4" cpvc, and I don't plan to redo everything any time soon; the inlet line may increase to 1" to assist with back flushing the unit, but after the softener it's going to stay the 3/4" that's in the home now...

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