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Thread: Water softener selection help

  1. #61
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob999 View Post
    Contrary to the view posted above I don't believe that it is necessary to increase the size of the DLFC when installing a Turbulator. In my experience Turbulators work just fine using the same size DLFC as would be used with a standard distributor.

    Of course if you do increase the size of the DLFC, as the poster apparently does, then it is understandable that bead breakage and excessive wear could occur. This is a great example of a salesman creating a problem and solving it with his preferred equipment.
    Bob, state your experience in selling and servicing softners with a Tubulator distributor tube or... call any wholesaler supplier of softeners that sells the Turbulator distributor tube and ask them if I'm right or wrong about increasing the size of the DLFC. Or try Pentair's web site for the instructions concerning the use of the Turbulator distributor tube.

    Or look at the pictures below of a regular 1.05" OD DT (the gray one) and a 1.05" OD Tubulator DT and tell me how the same gpm flow of water down both types of distributor tubes is going to equally backwash the resin when the Turbulator DT diverts a 1/2" flow of resin and water up the side tube of a Turbulator.

    Also tell us how you think the Turbulator softener still gets the same bed expansion of a minimum of 50% of the bed depth that all resin manufacturers require for proper backwashing of their resin when a 1/2" flow is diverted from the backwash water flow wit ha Turbulator. The ID of both distributor tube types is 3/4".

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    Last edited by Gary Slusser; 05-07-2010 at 04:40 PM.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  2. #62
    DIY Senior Member Bob999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    Also tell us how you think the Turbulator softener still gets the same bed expansion of a minimum of 50% of the bed depth that all resin manufacturers require for proper backwashing of their resin when a 1/2" flow is diverted from the backwash water flow wit ha Turbulator. The ID of both distributor tube types is 3/4".
    Please post a reference that supports your assertion that "bed expansion of a minimum of 50% of the bed depth that all resin manufacturers require". I don't believe that such a requirement exists.

    As you well know the action of a turbulator is different and because of that many suppliers use smaller tanks with turbulators--or use more resin. I believe one of the other posters on this board has posted that he does the latter.

    There are many approaches to water treatment and very few "requirements". Rather there are practices, good practices, etc. Just because you do things one way does not mean that there are not other ways and just because someone does things differently than you recommend does not make them wrong.

  3. #63
    In the Trades Akpsdvan's Avatar
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    What is the max gpm with the turbolator?

    Does any one know?

    I know , but would like to find out if any one else knows the number that is the max gpm.

  4. #64
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob999 View Post
    Please post a reference that supports your assertion that "bed expansion of a minimum of 50% of the bed depth that all resin manufacturers require". I don't believe that such a requirement exists.
    I know you don't and yet you can ask any resin manufuacturer what freeboard they want and if there are any problems if it is less than they want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob999 View Post
    As you well know the action of a turbulator is different and because of that many suppliers use smaller tanks with turbulators--or use more resin. I believe one of the other posters on this board has posted that he does the latter.
    Like I said, I've never heard of that being done except by AKpsdvan. And now you.

    I wouldn't do it, especially with warmer water than he has in AK but, what do you see as the advantage to more resin in an undersized tank with iron in the water and then adding a Turbulator without increasing the gpm of the DLFC, ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob999 View Post
    There are many approaches to water treatment and very few "requirements". Rather there are practices, good practices, etc. Just because you do things one way does not mean that there are not other ways and just because someone does things differently than you recommend does not make them wrong.
    Yes I use good and proven practices and you and AKpsdvan are telling people to do things that are not industry standard.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  5. #65
    DIY Senior Member Bob999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    Like I said, I've never heard of that being done except by AKpsdvan. And now you.
    Gary, there is much that you have never heard of that exists and is done. We all know that you believe that if you haven't heard it and done it then it can't be right. It is that attitude that creates so much conflict everywhere you post.

    The reality and truth is that there are many many ideas and ways to do things in this world that you don't know about and haven't experienced. But the fact that you don't know about them and haven't experienced them doesn't mean they don't exist and doesn't mean they aren't good ways of doing things.

  6. #66
    In the Trades Akpsdvan's Avatar
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    Hague Gold Crown was set up with 10" of free board and the turbo.

    They even had a clear media tank for shows and with the turbo in it and 2gpm flow rate the resin would stay down and not get out in the back wash.

    The Hague 232 was 1 cubic with a 22k on optimum setting
    The Hague 252 was 1.5 cubic with a 30k on optimum setting
    The Hague 272 was 1.8 cubic with a 45k on optimum setting

    This was from a page that was dated Jan. 1986 so this has been around for at least 25 years.

  7. #67
    DIY Senior Member Bob999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    ... you ... are telling people to do things that are not industry standard.
    I don't believe that is true. Please cite an example where I have told someone to do things "that are not industry standard"-- and provide a reference for the "industry standard" you are basing your comment on.

    In the instant case I said: "As you well know the action of a turbulator is different and because of that many suppliers use smaller tanks with turbulators--or use more resin." I DID NOT tell anyone to use small tanks or to use more resin--I merely stated that many suppliers do. I also did not say that I use smaller tanks or use more resin in the tank.

  8. #68
    DIY Senior Member Bob999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akpsdvan View Post
    What is the max gpm with the turbolator?

    Does any one know?

    I know , but would like to find out if any one else knows the number that is the max gpm.
    I don't know but am looking forward to learning!

  9. #69
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akpsdvan View Post
    Hague Gold Crown was set up with 10" of free board and the turbo.

    They even had a clear media tank for shows and with the turbo in it and 2gpm flow rate the resin would stay down and not get out in the back wash.

    The Hague 232 was 1 cubic with a 22k on optimum setting
    The Hague 252 was 1.5 cubic with a 30k on optimum setting
    The Hague 272 was 1.8 cubic with a 45k on optimum setting

    This was from a page that was dated Jan. 1986 so this has been around for at least 25 years.
    Does Hague still sell that model... I'm thinking not. And why would that be since it worked so well and they demoed it with a clear tank'n all?

    It sounds like a lot of other things that were tried and given up on after it didn't work. And then years later soneone tries it again for a time until they give up on it because it doesn't work.

    What are those optimum settings' salt dose lbs?

    If I program a 1.0 cuft with regular mesh resin, I get 22K @ 6.5 lbs. A 1.5 @ 9 lbs gets 30K, a 1.8 cuft is an odd size but a 2.0 cuft with regular resin, I get 40K @ 12lbs.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  10. #70
    In the Trades Akpsdvan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    Does Hague still sell that model... I'm thinking not. And why would that be since it worked so well and they demoed it with a clear tank'n all?

    It sounds like a lot of other things that were tried and given up on after it didn't work. And then years later soneone tries it again for a time until they give up on it because it doesn't work.

    What are those optimum settings' salt dose lbs?

    If I program a 1.0 cuft with regular mesh resin, I get 22K @ 6.5 lbs. A 1.5 @ 9 lbs gets 30K, a 1.8 cuft is an odd size but a 2.0 cuft with regular resin, I get 40K @ 12lbs.
    So little that you know..

    That Line was retired because of production cost of the valve, and that they wished to have the same valve on the new hydro clean and water max and water boss... cost savings.

    The salt curve.. where on that curve does one get the best bang for the buck?

    There are Hague units out there around here that have worked with no service calls for 20 years... and that after the person had another brand name unit that was getting service work done every year just to have so so water..

    Those same Hague units that you are putting down did better on high iron because of the make up and say the Culligan Mark 89 or 812....

  11. #71
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akpsdvan View Post
    So little that you know..
    Then teach me and others reading your posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akpsdvan View Post
    That Line was retired because of production cost of the valve, and that they wished to have the same valve on the new hydro clean and water max and water boss... cost savings.
    But see, you aren't telling us that they are still using the Turbulator in smaller than normal tanks and putting more resin in them than normal volumes. I know they aren't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akpsdvan View Post
    The salt curve.. where on that curve does one get the best bang for the buck?
    I asked you for the salt dose in lbs used per regeneration for what you said was the optimal settings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akpsdvan View Post
    There are Hague units out there around here that have worked with no service calls for 20 years...
    And I have seen Autotrol, Brunner, Erie and Fleck coantrols do the same 20 years service free. I've seen Water Right, WaterCare, Culligan, McClean and Rainsoft etc. etc. go 20 years service free also.

    Those same Hague units that you are putting down did better on high iron because of the make up and say the Culligan Mark 89 or 812....[/QUOTE]
    I didn't put them down, I simply said they don't do it anymore because it didn't work and you have proved I was correct..
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  12. #72
    In the Trades Akpsdvan's Avatar
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    You missed and this thread has gone into left field.
    Let me know when it returns to what was started.

  13. #73
    In the Trades Wally Hays's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akpsdvan View Post
    What is the max gpm with the turbolator?

    Does any one know?

    I know , but would like to find out if any one else knows the number that is the max gpm.
    So, what's the word here? I've never used anything with a turbulator but I'm gonna guess somewhere around 8 to 12 gpm
    Perception is 3/4 of reality

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