two check valves?

[KQ2N]

To make a long story short, I have two wells, we'll call them well #1 and well #2, both dug and both have problems. I have had a 2 pump system but since pump #1 on well #1 went bad, I now have both wells on remaining pump #2 with a gate valve in each line to select which well I want to use. (Both wells are marginal in this dry spell we're having).

The problem is that once I hooked well #1 onto pump #2 (I have a short length of clear plastic pipe inline inorder to see what's going on) I notice water flowback into the well when the pump shuts off, and prime is lost. When I had well #1 on pump #1, even though it had other problems, this did not happen. Both pumps are identical and have a check valve at their input. I'm thinking the check valve on pump #2 that I 'm now using is defective. I'm certain well #1 has a foot valve at the intake. So, my assumption is that both check valves are leaky and that by replacing the one on the pump, I won't have the backflow and consequently loose prime. I'm guessing that water won't backflow without an air source at the pump, and a correctly operating check valve will ensure that.

My question, well #2 has a foot valve and it apears to be operating ok. Unfortunately, well #2 has some air leakage between the well and the house and bubbles can be seen on the clear plastic input pipe when that well is selected. By replacing the check valve on the pump, will the pump still draw water with 2 check valves inline seeing that I have some air in the line? Keep in mind, it doesn't have to overcome 2 check valves now as it's assumed the one in pump #2 is leaky.

I'm limping along here as I'm on the list for a drilled well the end of October and don't want to spend any more than I have to on the present system.

Thanks!

Gary

[speedbump]

Hi Gary,

First of all, the best place for the check valve is on the end of the droppipe with none anywhere else. Assuming both wells have droppipe and footvalves, I recommend changing both to good brass footvalves. Get rid of the one at the pump, get rid of any fittings that aren't absoluletly necessary in both suction lines. (This reduces air leak possibilities) Most folks don't realize how such a little amount of air can really screw up an otherwise good install.

I would also tee the two wells together if possible. This will give you more water with the one pump and it would help you get rid of those valves that are probably sucking air through the packing nut. The pump will pull the same on two wells as it would one and get the water from where it can.

bob...

[KQ2N]

Hi Bob,

The whole issue here is that I did not want to get involved in changing the footvalves on either pipedrop, that can be costly. I just want to be able to use both wells and limp along here until I get my drilled well in a few weeks.

You also say to tee the two wells together? Not sure how that would work if one well were to go dry for example. Also one well is located only 25 feet away from the house whereas the other about 200 feet. Both depths are different too, one about 12 feet, and the further one about 20.

Thanks again.

[speedbump]

PUtting the two together would still work better than just one at a time.


bob...

[Gary Slusser]

I agree with Bob and if your clear piece of line is vinyl, it collapses as suction is applied and that movement could be the cause of your air leak. Rigid clear sch 40 PVC would be the only clear pipe I'm aware of that wouldn't cause the problem.

Gary
Quality Water Associates

[speedbump]

Oh yeah I forgot about the clear pipe thing. When flat, it would be hare to get the water to flow.

I forgot this was a temporary fix too. (Getting old)

73's

kf4mm

[KQ2N]

The two pieces of clear pipe are vynyl but are only a few inches in length and I don't believe are causing the problem. I just put them in to confirm what's going on in the lines (seeing air bubbles, flowback etc...) I'm still a little puzzled though how I can open up the valves to the both wells at the same time. Wouldn't the well offering the least resistance be dominate? Meaning, if one well were to run dry, isn't air easier to suck air than water and cause a problem of no water being drawn up from the well that has the water because of the pump losing prime?

thanks guys!

[speedbump]

If both wells have 30 feet of droppipe or more they can't get air unless you had an air leak somewhere in the suction line.


From what you said, neither well pumps good so there will be equal vacuum on both wells. Because the pump is going to be trying to get more water than the wells are allowing it to have.


Is that a ham call or is it something else???

bob...
kf4mm

[KQ2N]

There is air in the suction pipe of the one well but it being 200 ft from the house and pump, I'm not about to attempt to find it at this point. It is usable though and I'm living with the air coming out of the fixtures. I can't rely on that well solely though as with the dry summer we've had, it goes dry. Then I need to use the other remaining well, that's the one with the footvalve problem and was hoping a working check valve at the pump would keep most of the water in the line so it wouldn't lose prime. Back on my first post I mentioned it had a dedicated pump but it had another problem. BUT the check valve on that pump did keep it primed - I didn't see any back flow when the pump shut off. The check valve on the second pump I'm using isn't working, changing it I'm certain will help the backflow on the one well, but my original question is whether it'll be able to pump water out of the other well that has the air leak. I don't know if there is an initial inertia or whatever to overcome with a working check valve at the pump. I know, it's getting a little confusing.

And yes Bob, KQ2N is my call sign even though with all the water issues here I haven't been active for a bit - hi hi. 73!

[speedbump]

I'm not active either, may be when/if I retire.

If you do use a check valve, it should be as close to the well as possible. That will pressurize the suction line for the most part and keep it from emptying of water and filling with air. Of coarse leaks have to be present for this to happen, but they don't have to be too big. The other good thing is, if you do have a leak in the suction line and you can see it, it will leak water when under pressure not vacuum.

bob...

[KQ2N]

Yes, you're right about a leaky pipe sucking air but not leaking water. I've learned a lot in the month or so I've been having problems. Worst thing is, I've had multiple problems which made troubleshooting difficult. I started out with a bad bladder on one of my tanks. From there I find out I have seal problems on another pump. Now the suction leak on one well and the bad foot valve on the other. Top it off I have 2 bad (marginal water supply) wells to start. Sure hoping the driller verifies what a couple dowsers have told me, that I have an aquafir out by the barn!!

That brings up another question. If I hit water, not knowing anything about submersible pumps, I assume they operate on 220v, correct? What kind of amperage do they draw and what size wire is used? The well would be about 400 ft from the house.

Thanks for the help!

Gary

73s!

[speedbump]

The wire size will depend on the length to pump to meter and the horsepower required. When all this is known, I can look it up for you.

I'm sure the driller will get you some water, how much is better known by him since all areas are different.

I know you and I know sunspots exist and that people can talk for thousands of miles on amateur radios under certain conditions. But please tell me you don't believe in Dowsers (water witch's) or what ever else they call themselves.

I know the coat hanger shaped like an ell held loosley in the hands will cross. But only when you cross a strong magnetic field like one given off by a pipe in the ground. As a surveyor years we proved this many times to the guys trying not to destroy a pipe while digging.

However the bark twisting off in the hands is the biggest ruse going. My friend Weylan Howard showed me how he could dowse for water with a willow branch. Well we couldn't find a willow tree so he grabbed an oak forked stick instead. This hurt his hands more since the oak bark is harder to twist off than that of the willow stick.
So while holding the stick in his fists, finger nails pointing up, he walked around a little, the stick started shaking a bit and got shakier as he got closer to the hot spot. Then as he started twisting his wrists inward the bark did in fact start peeling off the stick. Of coarse without rolling the wrists inward, nothig at all would have happened to the stick. The shaking of the stick was from all the caffein this man drank.
So as you can see, this art can be made to look llike the real thing to the untrained eye.

bob..
73's

[KQ2N]

Well, at this point I don't know how deep the water will be found (hopefully there will be some found) so don't know any more specifics on the motor size etc... needed.

As far as the dowsers, I'm not certain either on their validity, but I had two different guys come up at different times, one was my brother-in-law. I didn't tell either one of the findings of the other until they were done. They both found what appears to be a good 50 ft. diameter area, possibly an aquafir. It seems plausable as I lived in this house as a kid and the next door farmer had a spring dug approximately 100 ft up from where the dowsers found the water. Now mind you, I didn't tell the dowsers of the spring until they were done. After I told one of them, he tried tried tracing a vein back to the area I remember the spring (it's all overgrown with trees now) and was right on the money. One dowser used both a willow and an apple tree with equal success, the other a pear and apple and again, with equal success.

Can I take that to the bank ?? Don't know, but when one is scrimping for every drop of water as I do now, it's a ray of hope.

FYI, this area is tough on water. Prior to this I lived one mile westward as the crow flies in a house that lies in a very identical situation, the north side of the Mohawk valley, same elevation, same side sloping hill. I had a 20 ft. dug well there and had all the water one could possibly want. I moved back into my parents house last month as they both are recently deceased. Water is touchy all over this side hill. My old location as I said had a lot of water, my neighbors were in the positions I am here. The same on this road. One guy was going to purchase a lot to build on contingent on finding water, the driller went down 145 ft. and stopped at the guy's request. No water. Just across the road, the guy had to go down 250 ft. and has plenty of water. So, that's the way it goes. Any well driller I've talked to is well aware of this area and the water woess

I'm scheduled for the driller the end of October. Now I'm Hoping the fall rains won't come as the drilling rig has to traverse a small ravine and the prevalent clay soil around here can even mire an all wheel drive tractor, let alone having 2 ft ruts in my lawn - hah!

Gary

[speedbump]

I believe you in that the area is tough for drillers for some reason Gary. But I still give no credance to dowsers.

It's all smoke and mirrors as far as I am concerned.

The main reason I disbelieve these guys is both states I have drilled wells in have water anywhere you drill. Large areas have water at the same depth, same material same everything. And here comes the dowser that says, "drill here". Horsepuckey, I could drill anywhere I wanted to and have water at the same depth. There are no vein's like most people think except in the surface water, where water can move more easily through a vein of sand surrounded by clay. There are aquifers that have more water than all the oceans put together. Sure there are mountainous areas that have wells that produce less than humidity, but this is the exception not the norm.

But they make for some interesting conversations though.

bob...

[KQ2N]

I understand your thinking regarding dowsers Bob, but as I said, when one is looking for a ray of hope to find water, I'll go on whatever I can grasp. May it be an aquafir or not, since the one neighbor just up the road did find water at 250 ft, if my "aquafir" doesn't pan out at a shallower level, I'll go down at least to the 250 ft. level and try to tap into the same source hopefully as the neighbor. I'll let you know in a couple months how I made out, just another piece of info you could add to your database.

tnx es 73's
de KQ2N
Gary