1-1/4" PEX, is a DIY install possible?

[Gary Slusser]

Flow rate?

1.5 cubic would be more in line with 33000 grains at 9lbs and clean about every 10 days with your hardness and number of people.

1" valve Bypass and Valve Fleck or Clack would be able to handle peak flow of 17 gpm with 25psi loss..

Look for one with a Digital meter... so that you can set for both gallons and 9 day over ride..

How do you expect a homeowner to come up with his "flow rate"? And which "flow rate" are you talking about? As a dealer you should be doing that for your prospective customer.

Your statement of 17 gpm @25 psi... I don't see that with the softeners with the Clack WS-1 that I have been selling for over 6 years. And I've sold them on up to 6.5 cuft softeners with many 2.5, 3 and 3.5 cuft softeners. No customer has ever mentioned a pressure loss (or flow) problem. And that includes 2 person showers with up to 6 body sprays. IMO there is something about sizing softeners that you aren't understanding correctly.

[Akpsdvan]

So there is no greater pressure drop the higher the flow rate through a valve?

The Home owner should not learn what is going on inside their house including water usage and flow rates and why there is not Great pressure at the shower on the third floor?

[Gary Slusser]

Learning curves are great....

Average Flow the way I was tought was Gallons used in a day divided by 1440 ... so your house size family size would maybe put you at say 700gallons/1440=.46gpm.... but when one counts fixture plumbing weight that would have every thing on at the same time it might show 38gpm..

So there is a balance that is going to be needed.. if you size to small there is going to be higher pressure loss.. if you size to big then there will be channeling or water finding the path that is easy through the system..

Doing a search of Plumbing Fixture Weight Count will help you in finding what that peak is going to be for your house.

Because of the variations in water quality and temps, actual experience is the best way to learn but I've never heard of what you have been taught.

Fixture unit count gets you into HUGE sizes because it's as if every faucet and water using appliance is run at the same time. No one lives like that.

I don't agree with "a balance", I size for the peak demand gpm based on the type of fixtures etc. and how the family actually uses water based on fixture flow rates. I've been doing that for many years.
I've never had a customer with a channeling problem or to go over the constant SFR gpm of their softener, or complaining about a pressure/flow loss.

[Akpsdvan]

What ever.............

Looks to be only one way to do things...

[Gary Slusser]

So there is no greater pressure drop the higher the flow rate through a valve?

The Home owner should not learn what is going on inside their house including water usage and flow rates and why there is not Great pressure at the shower on the third floor?

Did I say there wasn't a greater pressure drop, no I didn't. I said that from my experience it doesn't work the way you think it does. BTW, a correctly sized softener will not have a noticeable pressure or flow loss.

And I don't recall selling to anyone with a third floor but, if they have a 3rd floor, they already have the pressure and flow to service it.

Maybe in AK there are many three floor houses, but my customers tend to be in ranch or two story houses, not three story.

[Gary Slusser]

What ever.............

Looks to be only one way to do things...

"What ever"?

IMO you're right. And that one way is the right way.

How many people have you sold softeners to that have had pressure or flow losses? IMO with you using smaller diameter but taller tanks as you say you use with Turbulator distributor tubes, you should, IMO. Also, I've been on the internet posting like this since Jan 1997 (13 yrs) and I don't hear people with softeners talking about a loss of pressure due to the size of their softeners. Do you?

[hoffmand]

I mentioned 10gpg not being very hard because I see people with well water posting 20-30+ gpg.

I'll give you a call to go over the specifics, but we don't have any crazy showers, just regular single-head, flow restricted showers. We do use the bathtubs for the kids so the most water we'd ever use at once would be two tubs filling and maybe the dishwasher and front-loader washing machine.

One last part of my learning curve is whether softeners are either 100% softening to 0gpg, or off. Is there any middle ground to help us (my wife) transition from always having hard water to what she calls "slimy" soft water? Ideally I'd leave a tiny bit of hardness in the water for a month or two until she was used to it and then run it properly.

Thanks for the help everyone...

[Bob999]

One last part of my learning curve is whether softeners are either 100% softening to 0gpg, or off. Is there any middle ground to help us (my wife) transition from always having hard water to what she calls "slimy" soft water? Ideally I'd leave a tiny bit of hardness in the water for a month or two until she was used to it and then run it properly.

Thanks for the help everyone...

You won't get zero hardness from a typical residential softener installation--at least not at typical flow rates. Don't be mislead by postings that talk about "0 grains per gallon" from a residential softener. A typical residential softener will have hardness leakage of several parts per million and each part per million is equal to approximately .05 grains per gallon.

However, even with several parts per million residual hardness it is very likely that your wife will perceive the water as "slimy" and the Water Quality Association says that water of less than 1 grain per gallon is "soft".

[hoffmand]

Thanks. Can you "trick" the softener into not softening down to 1gpg at first?

[Gary Slusser]

Yes water hardness varies widely from one well to another. My record hardness is 136 gpg.

Bath tubs usually have the highest flow rate of any fixture in a house. And all other water being used at the time a tub is beiing filled is added to that flow and the softener has to treat all of it. Front loading washing machines are connected to the same hoses and plumbing in the wall that other washing machines that use more water are connected to. So it's the same gpm flow rate, regardless of the number of gallons used. Front loaders use the same gpm but for a shorter length of time.

"Soft" water in relation to residential softeners is stated in gpg (grains per gallons) and the WQA (Water Quality Association) says a softener is working as long as there is no more than 1 gpg of hardness in the softened water. I say it should be 0 gpg and I size for that.

The slippery feeling is easy to get used to when you realize your skin and clothes and appliances and fixtures are benefiting greatly from softened water. So is your water heater and shower heads and valves etc. but, if you want to, Clack plumbing connectors allow an easy simple way to add some hard water back into the softened water if you want to do that. Although I don't suggest it. She will be cutting way back on detergents, soap and shampoo and conditioners and her skin will be very soft, smooth and moisturized without those products. Her hair be silky soft'n shinny and the clothes will be soft and much cleaner and brighter too without adding laundry softeners or softener dryer sheets. And everything she cleans with the soft water will clean up easier and faster and stay clean longer. And once she gets used to it (about 3 weeks), she will really hate going somewhere and having to use hard water. And she will be your official soft water tester, if the softener starts allowing hard water through it, she WILL be telling you all but immediately.

[Gary Slusser]

You won't get zero hardness from a typical residential softener installation--at least not at typical flow rates. Don't be mislead by postings that talk about "0 grains per gallon" from a residential softener. A typical residential softener will have hardness leakage of several parts per million and each part per million is equal to approximately .05 grains per gallon.

You are playing with words Bob and you know it. When some one says the water from a residential softener is "soft", you know they mean 0 GPG because they use a test kit that shows the test result in GPG.

A gpg is made up of 17.1 ppm or mg/l. And people rarely if ever can 'feel' less than 1-2 gpg of hardness.

However, even with several parts per million residual hardness it is very likely that your wife will perceive the water as "slimy" and the Water Quality Association says that water of less than 1 grain per gallon is "soft".

The WQA says that in relation to a softener's operation as in it doing what it is expected or supposed to do consistently; that is to produce water of no more than 1 GPG of hardness.

[Gary Slusser]

Thanks. Can you "trick" the softener into not softening down to 1gpg at first?

No trick or tricks, if you want water harder than say 0 or 1 GPG, you must add some hard water back into the softened water.

[hoffmand]

No trick or tricks, if you want water harder than say 0 or 1 GPG, you must add some hard water back into the softened water.

Even if we never add some hard water back in, it will make her less resistant to know it can be adjusted back a little. Do i need to plan for that during my plumbing work, or is that handled with the bypass valve?

[Skip Wolverton]

I mentioned 10gpg not being very hard because I see people with well water posting 20-30+ gpg.

I'll give you a call to go over the specifics, but we don't have any crazy showers, just regular single-head, flow restricted showers. We do use the bathtubs for the kids so the most water we'd ever use at once would be two tubs filling and maybe the dishwasher and front-loader washing machine.

One last part of my learning curve is whether softeners are either 100% softening to 0gpg, or off. Is there any middle ground to help us (my wife) transition from always having hard water to what she calls "slimy" soft water? Ideally I'd leave a tiny bit of hardness in the water for a month or two until she was used to it and then run it properly.

Thanks for the help everyone...

I spent 13 yrs in Austin working in the water treatment industry. I have had several people tell me they don not want the "slimy" feeling. I would install a cross over pipe with a ball valve in it and open it slightly and bleed about 1 grain of hardness. You get the bennies of soft water but the feel of hard. I still know several people in the Austin area that sell and service water treatment for you need someone local.

[Akpsdvan]

Oh my,,,,

Here we go again........