Is there any way to tell a water softeners capacity by tank size?

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Bob999

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Free chlorine doesn't give a chlorine odor. It is the combined chlorine (chlorine that has partially oxidized organic material) that gives the chlorine odor). If you are doing a test at the home a high quality swimming pool test kit will have the appropriate chemicals to test for free and total chlorine. Alternatively most swimming pool supply stores will do the chlorine test for you. If the total chlorine is higher than the free chlorine then you will have chlorine odor.
 

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On the fitting that has the brine line and drain line there should be a lable, one number for the backwash number like 3 or 4 gpm and then there should be a white, or 0 , 00 injector then there should be a black one that says .5gpm on it for the brine...

In the front of the manual for the 9000 is a formula on figuring the numbers..

Say the unit with 9 lbs gives 22000 grains.. with your hardness of say 3grains...that would give 7000 gallons.. but then the number of gallons from cleaning would be subtracked from the 7000 gallons...

Large carbon filter.... ok.. How big is the tank on that carbon unit? How many bathrooms in the home?

It could last out to 10 years, but water usage , amount of chlorine in the water... any thing else that the carbon might take out will change the 10 year time frame... you could get 3 years, or 7 years... but yes carbon Will Take Out the Chlorine .

Checked the tags. On the drain hose label, the amount has faded so I can't read that one.

On the brine hose fitting, it says ".50 gpm, 1.5 lb salt minimum"
Does this mean anything? I am going to try to attach pictures of my dial setting and pin wheel for your review.
I really appreciate all the help!
John
 

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Akpsdvan

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Checked the tags. On the drain hose label, the amount has faded so I can't read that one.

On the brine hose fitting, it says ".50 gpm, 1.5 lb salt minimum"
Does this mean anything? I am going to try to attach pictures of my dial setting and pin wheel for your review.
I really appreciate all the help!
John

The part that you can read , the .5gpm is the flow rate back into the brine tank... that is good.
From what I can see in the pin/space settings,, 8 minute backwash. 60minutes on brine draw/rinse, 6 minute rapid rinse and 6 minutes or 9 lbs on the salt...

The Meter is at 1350 gallons with 1125 remaining before it trips into the next cycle.

Most likely there is a 2.0 gallon per minute backwash plug in the drain outlet...
With that in mind and the .5 gpm most likely in the brine draw/rinse part and the brine refill, you would use about 61-62 gallons in the full cleaning cycle..

So if the capacity of a tank says that it could do for example 2000 gallons, then I would subtrac 100 gallons, 62 for cleaning and the other 38 for the water usage while changing from one tank to the other..

Keep asking questions....
 

jonjonbear

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The part that you can read , the .5gpm is the flow rate back into the brine tank... that is good.
From what I can see in the pin/space settings,, 8 minute backwash. 60minutes on brine draw/rinse, 6 minute rapid rinse and 6 minutes or 9 lbs on the salt...

The Meter is at 1350 gallons with 1125 remaining before it trips into the next cycle.

Most likely there is a 2.0 gallon per minute backwash plug in the drain outlet...
With that in mind and the .5 gpm most likely in the brine draw/rinse part and the brine refill, you would use about 61-62 gallons in the full cleaning cycle..

So if the capacity of a tank says that it could do for example 2000 gallons, then I would subtrac 100 gallons, 62 for cleaning and the other 38 for the water usage while changing from one tank to the other..

Keep asking questions....

Sounds like I am getting closer to figuring this out thanks to you guys!
So do my pin settings look good? Given what you guys have told me, it sounds pretty good, maybe a bit heavy on the salt or no?
So should I set the gallons dial at 1900 and call that it or am I misunderstanding how this setting works?
Thanks so much for staying with me on this..

John
 

Akpsdvan

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Sounds like I am getting closer to figuring this out thanks to you guys!
So do my pin settings look good? Given what you guys have told me, it sounds pretty good, maybe a bit heavy on the salt or no?
So should I set the gallons dial at 1900 and call that it or am I misunderstanding how this setting works?
Thanks so much for staying with me on this..
John
Pin and space settings look good...
one thing that you might try for say a month or so is cut one space out of the brine refill... from 3 spaces to 2 spaces and change the meter from 1450 to 1900... then let things ride for a month or more and see how the water is... are there days that the water is a little hard? if there is then cut the gallons down 100-200 .. let that go for awhile again to see what happens to the hardness...

Are there times that the house fills up with people? goes from 2 to say 8 people ever?
 

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If you experiment as Akpsdvan suggests just be aware that with a twin tank system that most changes you make in settings affect the regeneration of the current tank that won't come back into service for some time. In your case with 2 people in the house and typical water usage of 120 gallons per day and a setting of 1900 gallons a tank will last about 16 days so if you change the salt dose that won't do anything until the unit regenerates and then the regenerated tank won't come into service for another 16 days on average.
 

Gary Slusser

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I wouldn't set it up that way for 2 people and 3 gpg of hardness with no iron. Eleven or 16 days is too long between regenerations and it's using too much salt and water.

I don't recall the size of the tanks but I would do a regeneration of each tank with the max lbs of salt for the cuft of resin (15 lbs/cuft) and then program it based on 120 * 3 = 360 * 8 = 3K (3000/3= 1000 gals - those used per regeneration rounded down to the lower 25 gallons )and say 3 lbs of salt.

If you have a 2.0 gpm DLFC, you can remove it and see if there is a 2.0 or what the number is on it, that's the gpm. You can use the math formula in the manual to come up with the exact number of gallons used per regeneration (minutes times the DLFC gpm), and subtract them from the meter setting and round them down to the nearest 25 gallons. You do that because your meter dial is marked in 25 gallon increments.

And if you do the math right to get the programming right, you don't have to make a change and then use water for a few weeks or a month to see how it goes.

It doesn't matter how many people show up, however many use up the gallons on the meter faster than just the two of you normally do. The guests leave and you go back up to the on average once a week regeneration per tank. The down side of that is that your control valve does not do a purge rinse of the week old stagnant water, and in TX fairly warm water in the stand by tank before putting it into service. Frankly unless your household is using softened water 24/7, you don't need a twin tank softener and would be better off with a regular softener regenerating at 2 AM once every 7-9 days.

Your 10" x 48" is probably a 10 x 47, a 1.25 cuft (40K) per tank. Or an undersized 1.5 cuft.
 
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jonjonbear

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Pin and space settings look good...
one thing that you might try for say a month or so is cut one space out of the brine refill... from 3 spaces to 2 spaces and change the meter from 1450 to 1900... then let things ride for a month or more and see how the water is... are there days that the water is a little hard? if there is then cut the gallons down 100-200 .. let that go for awhile again to see what happens to the hardness...

Are there times that the house fills up with people? goes from 2 to say 8 people ever?

That sounds like a good plan. We do get a houseful but not very often. Maybe one party a year, and during holidays sometimes more folks, otherwise just the two of us and all very water wise appliances and plumbing fixtures.

Thanks for all your help,
John
 
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jonjonbear

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I wouldn't set it up that way for 2 people and 3 gpg of hardness with no iron. Eleven or 16 days is too long between regenerations and it's using too much salt and water.

I don't recall the size of the tanks but I would do a regeneration of each tank with the max lbs of salt for the cuft of resin (15 lbs/cuft) and then program it based on 120 * 3 = 360 * 8 = 3K (3000/3= 1000 gals - those used per regeneration rounded down to the lower 25 gallons )and say 3 lbs of salt.

If you have a 2.0 gpm DLFC, you can remove it and see if there is a 2.0 or what the number is on it, that's the gpm. You can use the math formula in the manual to come up with the exact number of gallons used per regeneration (minutes times the DLFC gpm), and subtract them from the meter setting and round them down to the nearest 25 gallons. You do that because your meter dial is marked in 25 gallon increments.

And if you do the math right to get the programming right, you don't have to make a change and then use water for a few weeks or a month to see how it goes.

It doesn't matter how many people show up, however many use up the gallons on the meter faster than just the two of you normally do. The guests leave and you go back up to the on average once a week regeneration per tank. The down side of that is that your control valve does not do a purge rinse of the week old stagnant water, and in TX fairly warm water in the stand by tank before putting it into service. Frankly unless your household is using softened water 24/7, you don't need a twin tank softener and would be better off with a regular softener regenerating at 2 AM once every 7-9 days.

Your 10" x 48" is probably a 10 x 47, a 1.25 cuft (40K) per tank. Or an undersized 1.5 cuft.

Thanks Gary,
But boy I am really confused now..Now I know what it was like trying to explain an auto repair to a not auto person :)
I followed your calculation, up until the 3000/3. I didn't see that on your page, is that something you did because of my unusual situation? where does the division by 3 come from? I figured this unit is overkill but it was free.
One thing I can't find any info on is the timings for backwash, Brine/rinse, Rapid rinse timing settings. Only the brine fill. How do you calculate the necessary timing for these other steps? If I am reading my dial correctly, this is what I see:

Backwash-8 minutes (purpose of this to remove sediment?)
Brine/Rinse-64 minutes (wow that seems long)(so this sucks the brine solution from the brine tank until the brine tank valve closes, at which time this cycle becomes the rinse?)
Rapid rinse-6 minutes
Brine fill-6 minutes, @.50 per minute, does this mean 3 gallons and 3 lbs of salt? (does this seem light? Did I read you think this should be set at 22.50 based on your 15lb per cf media? Won't this really raise my salt use?)
With my light load, do I need to have a 64 minute brine/rinse? Seems with my small salt draw, that maybe this brine rinse is too long? (tapping for water savings here)
In the first part of your reply you said not to use the 2 person, 3 grain settings because it would use too much water and salt? This I don't understand, it would appear to me to use less, but not flush often enough which seems to be my biggest problem here, correct? Water sitting in the unused tank too long?
Please forgive all the questions, I can't believe this is so hard for me to grasp. Throw a car repair at me, or a computer and I am good but this stuff it tough for me. Thank goodness for folks like you all, the rest of us would really screw it up! :)
I am just glad I didn't go in there and start re-arranging pins and timing without asking someone.
Second let me apologize for my long posts. I try to relay everything I thing pertinent but I am sure is exhausting to read.

Thanks,
John
 

Akpsdvan

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The first 1/3 of the brine draw/rinse is for the removal of the brine, the other 2/3 is a rinse..

With a twin one finds the capacity in gallons of a tank, and remove from that capacity in gallons the amount needed for cleaning and a little for the change over time.
The number of people will tell how long it is likely to be between cleaning cycles.

Your set up ,,, 1.0 cubic foot and the low end setting of capacity is more than what your meter at the high end.
There are challenges if the unit goes Too long... weeks not days between cleaning.. hardness is one thing, Iron is another.. With hardness one might get 15 days between cleanings with no problems, but with Iron in the water that number goes down..

One person and 1.0 ppm of iron the unit should be cleaning about every 5-7 days.... any more than that and the iron will start working through the media bed.
Others may say different, I can only go on what I have found around my area in the last 20 years of what works and does not work and time frames that work best.

Ask away, only through questions can one gain enlightment.....
 

jonjonbear

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not much iron

I think I am okay on iron, my iron shows at 0.025 mg/l, sounds almost non existent so it looks like I have that in my favor. The way it is set up now it seems to regen quite often. Not sure how many gallons it uses but the little hose that is connected to the drain absolutely gushes water. I wish I could read that label on the fitting, it faded away..I guess I could get a bucket and test it. I have always been curious how much water this uses per cycle.

John
 

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I think I am okay on iron, my iron shows at 0.025 mg/l, sounds almost non existent so it looks like I have that in my favor. The way it is set up now it seems to regen quite often. Not sure how many gallons it uses but the little hose that is connected to the drain absolutely gushes water. I wish I could read that label on the fitting, it faded away..I guess I could get a bucket and test it. I have always been curious how much water this uses per cycle.

John
You say that you have the book, on page 26 or so, 9000 control valve assembly there is the number 12 that is the brine, drain assembly...
Unhook the drain line, unscrew the fitting that goes into the injector assembly , there may or may not be a retainer, if there is remove, and then remove that rubber washer... on that washer there is a number , it is a bit of a challenge to read but it will say 2.0 , 2.4 , 3.0.... that number is the gallon per minute back wash that will go through the hole that is in that washer...
 

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Jon,
Here it is....A combustion engine a 4 cycles (intake, compression, combustion and exhaust) A softener has 4 basic cycle (backwash, brine, rinse and service.) An engine has a timing and so does a softener. The cycles of the softener are timed to insure proper functions, backwash about 10 min, brine about 60 min, rinse about 10 min. The engine has 2 valves (intake and exhaust). The softener has 1 (brine valve). It does 2 function per say. It draws the brine water into the resin tank and then fills the brine tank with water for the next cycle. So you see a softener is much like an engine.
 

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Jon,
Here it is....A combustion engine a 4 cycles (intake, compression, combustion and exhaust) A softener has 4 basic cycle (backwash, brine, rinse and service.) An engine has a timing and so does a softener. The cycles of the softener are timed to insure proper functions, backwash about 10 min, brine about 60 min, rinse about 10 min. The engine has 2 valves (intake and exhaust). The softener has 1 (brine valve). It does 2 function per say. It draws the brine water into the resin tank and then fills the brine tank with water for the next cycle. So you see a softener is much like an engine.

Hah! Spoken in my language, I love it! :)

So those timings are pretty standard for most installations? I feared my system was using like almost 200 gallons to regen, but I didn't realize until reading more carefully that half of the cycle and the longest part at that) goes through that .50 gpm brine outlet so I feel a bit better, now just need to pull the drain nipple and see what size/color ring is below it.
Ya'all are great help!
Thanks,

John
 

Akpsdvan

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That drain control will be black, but there is a number on one side of it... 2.0,2.4,3.0 etc...

A few more days or so and you will be a pro at this...
 

Skip Wolverton

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Hah! Spoken in my language, I love it! :)

So those timings are pretty standard for most installations? I feared my system was using like almost 200 gallons to regen, but I didn't realize until reading more carefully that half of the cycle and the longest part at that) goes through that .50 gpm brine outlet so I feel a bit better, now just need to pull the drain nipple and see what size/color ring is below it.
Ya'all are great help!
Thanks,

John
During the brine draw the water passes through the venturi which is .33 gpm. So for the 60 min of brining, that's 19.8 gallons used. The .5 gpm is used for the refill. A fill at 4 min will be 2 gallons of water which will desolve 6 lbs salt. It seems so easy now doesn't it? LOL
 

Gary Slusser

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Thanks Gary,
But boy I am really confused now..Now I know what it was like trying to explain an auto repair to a not auto person :)
I followed your calculation, up until the 3000/3. I didn't see that on your page, is that something you did because of my unusual situation? where does the division by 3 come from?

Backwash-8 minutes (purpose of this to remove sediment?)
Brine/Rinse-64 minutes (wow that seems long)(so this sucks the brine solution from the brine tank until the brine tank valve closes, at which time this cycle becomes the rinse?)
Rapid rinse-6 minutes

Brine fill-6 minutes, @.50 per minute, does this mean 3 gallons and 3 lbs of salt? (does this seem light? Did I read you think this should be set at 22.50 based on your 15lb per cf media? Won't this really raise my salt use?)
With my light load, do I need to have a 64 minute brine/rinse? Seems with my small salt draw, that maybe this brine rinse is too long? (tapping for water savings here)

In the first part of your reply you said not to use the 2 person, 3 grain settings because it would use too much water and salt?

Thanks,
John
This should help;
do a regeneration of each tank with the max lbs of salt for the cuft of resin (15 lbs/cuft) [use 23 lbs] and then program it based on [2 people * 60 gals/person/day=] 120 * 3 [gpg]= 360 [per day]* 8 [days] = [3000] 3K [3k=] 3000/3 [gpg, to get how many gallons between regenerations]= 1000 gals - [subtract] those [gals] used per regeneration rounded down to the lower 25 gallons) and say 3 lbs of salt.

I would set the minutes of each cycle position at; 6 minutes [3 pins] for backwash, 46 [23 holes] for brine draw/slow rinse, 4 [2 pins] for rapid rinse and 2 [holes] for refill, and then 2 pins and all holes back to the beginning. The 2 holes refill is 6 lbs but IIRC you can't go one hole because the contact switch finger doesn't do well with one hole or pin but I may be wrong on that. You get 3 lbs per gallon of refill and .5 gpm or 1.5 lbs per minute. The gallons you set on the meter divided by 120 = the number of days between regenerations.
 

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In my experience the timing of brine fill on the electromechanical version of the Fleck 9000 valve is not very accurate. I suggest that after setting up the timer wheel you disconnect the brine line from the brine tank and measure the actual volume of brine fill.

Secondly, if you aren't able to set the brine fill to the amount you want you can buy a .25 gpm brine fill button so that each hole is nominally 1/2 gallon of water.
 

Akpsdvan

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In my experience the timing of brine fill on the electromechanical version of the Fleck 9000 valve is not very accurate. I suggest that after setting up the timer wheel you disconnect the brine line from the brine tank and measure the actual volume of brine fill.

Secondly, if you aren't able to set the brine fill to the amount you want you can buy a .25 gpm brine fill button so that each hole is nominally 1/2 gallon of water.

I have done that,,, changed the brine flow control from .5 to the .25 left the pins the same and cut the gallons in half....
 
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