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Thread: Changing 14 inch to 12 inch toilet

  1. #1
    DIY Member keano016's Avatar
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    Question Changing 14 inch to 12 inch toilet

    Hi

    I have an older house and several of the toilets are roughed in for a 14 inch toilet. Space is an issue So i would rather have the 2 inches of a gap in front of the seat then in the back between the wall and the tank.

    I have been reading a lot about the TOTO line that uses the unifit adapter on this forum. Terry, thanks for educating the masses and DIYser like me who can learn about various options. However, that system is about $400 (for one of the cheapest compatible TOTO toilets) and I still remain with a 14 inch rough in.

    btw, any place to read up on the step by step instalation of the unifit adapter and the toto compatible toilet (vespin for example)?

    Taking the entire pipe out (My floor is down to studs, so I can get to the stack) and replacing it with a 12 inch would be challenging since there is a need for a Y to add the tub drain (at least that is what my plumber is telling me).

    I saw in HD they had a 14 inch to 12 inch flange converter. Seems that the flange may work for my system, but HD only has 4 inch to 3 inch, which is a problem because my old drain pipe for the toilet (cast iron) is 4 inch. Have you seen a 4inch to 4inch 14 inch to 12 inch toilet flange?

    or maybe can I use this flange that from what I can tell fits instide the 4inch pipe? http://www.ronshomeandhardware.com/3...htm?click=1014


    I don't minde getting TOTO afterall, knowing I will have a great product, but I would rather have a 12 inch rough in and the TOT Drake, then pay lot of money for a toilet that will still have the now obsolete plumbing configuration.

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by keano016; 03-09-2010 at 06:18 AM.

  2. #2
    Moderator & Master Plumber hj's Avatar
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    It is NOT an obsolete plumbing configuration. It is a 14" rough, usually because of some architectural situation. Purchase a 14" toilet and you will not have to resort to machinations to get rid of the space behind the tank. The 2" offset collar will probably be the type which would cause more problems in the long run, than it would solve.
    Last edited by Terry; 04-18-2011 at 12:23 AM.

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    DIY Member keano016's Avatar
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    It is a tight space, the toilet is perpendicular to the tub and almost in the way of reaching the sink, so every inch helps. Myabe it is not obsolete, but choices for a 14 inch sink are limited. What kind of problems can the collar cause?
    Last edited by Terry; 04-18-2011 at 12:24 AM.

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    Moderator & Master Plumber hj's Avatar
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    For one thing, the only offset collar that you might have space for is the one with an "oval" opening and a "shelf" below the toilet opening. That shelf is very shallow and it is not uncommon for paper to lodge there and plug the toilet outlet. It is also somewhat difficult to get a good seal on the "narrow" side because it usually only has a thin 'lip" not a flange. But in your case, the common 14" toilet may not work, since many now use the same bowl as a 12" toilet with a tank that is 2" thicker at the back to eliminate the space. This means the bowl will stick out into the room the same distance as a 12" one would. This was not the case in the "old days" when they used the same tank and made the bowl different. And there may still be some companies which do it that way, but you would have to compare the 14" bowl's number with the 12" one to see if they are the same model.
    Last edited by hj; 03-09-2010 at 07:00 AM.

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    DIY Member keano016's Avatar
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    From what I have seen, for example the wellworth line of Kohler for the 14 inch rough, their depth is 31 inches http://www.us.kohler.com/onlinecatal...e=0--354827851. Compared to the 12 inch rough where the toilet is 28 1/2 inches. Similarly, if I go with the TOTO line, the depth is 28 inches.
    Last edited by Terry; 04-18-2011 at 12:25 AM.

  6. #6
    DIY Member keano016's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hj View Post
    For one thing, the only offset collar that you might have space for is the one with an "oval" opening and a "shelf" below the toilet opening. That shelf is very shallow and it is not uncommon for paper to lodge there and plug the toilet outlet. It is also somewhat difficult to get a good seal on the "narrow" side because it usually only has a thin 'lip" not a flange. But in your case, the common 14" toilet may not work, since many now use the same bowl as a 12" toilet with a tank that is 2" thicker at the back to eliminate the space. This means the bowl will stick out into the room the same distance as a 12" one would. This was not the case in the "old days" when they used the same tank and made the bowl different. And there may still be some companies which do it that way, but you would have to compare the 14" bowl's number with the 12" one to see if they are the same model.
    So this type of a flange would not work? http://www.ronshomeandhardware.com/3...htm?click=1014

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    Plumbing Contractor for 49 years johnjh2o1's Avatar
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    That flange would be a good choice, if you have the depth to install it. In most cases you don't.

    John

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    DIY Member keano016's Avatar
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    Would that flange fit in a 4 inch cast iron pipe? I think I may have enough clearance. I am putting 17/32 and 1/2 inch plywood, and then backerboard, and then tile, so just that would give me about 1 inches or so. How far up is the maximum that the flange should stick out, or should it lay flush with the tile?

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    Forum Admin, Expert Plumber Terry's Avatar
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    Would that flange fit in a 4 inch cast iron pipe?
    Very very doubtful.

    Your quickest fix remains the Vespin with 14" Unifit.

    Anything else is going to require a fair amount of plumbing, and if you have cast there now, you might as well just move to the next step.

    1) Install a 12" Drake, if that was the toilet you were thinking of. The end of the bowl will be 31" from the wall.
    2) Pick up a 14" Unifit to go with the Vespin. This will keep the end of the bowl about 28-3/4" from the wall.

    Last edited by Terry; 03-09-2010 at 10:34 AM.

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    DIY Member keano016's Avatar
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    Terry thanks for your input. Thanks again for discussing the unifit on the forum. Few questions.

    1) The flange is advertisied as fitting inside a 4 inch pipe, but is that meant a PVC pipe and it is going in a cast iron, it may not fit? I would try it but the old flange is still on the pipe so I can not try it. This is the description of the flange (Fits Over 3" Inside 4" DWV 2" Offset.) What does DWV mean?
    2) How difficult is the unifit instalation, is it just few extra screws in the back of the unifit?
    3) How does the unifit attach to the toilet? Do you just sit it on top of the unifit?

    If I switch a 12 inch then I can even go with some kohler ones that are in the 28 inch range.

    Any manufacturer's insturctions for isntalation of the unifit?

  11. #11
    Forum Admin, Expert Plumber Terry's Avatar
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    1) The flange is advertisied as fitting inside a 4 inch pipe, but is that meant a PVC pipe and it is going in a cast iron, it may not fit? I would try it but the old flange is still on the pipe so I can not try it. This is the description of the flange (Fits Over 3" Inside 4" DWV 2" Offset.) What does DWV mean?
    DWV = Drain Waste and Vent

    2) How difficult is the unifit instalation, is it just few extra screws in the back of the unifit?
    The unifit installs with wax to the flange, and uses four small screws toward the back.
    Simple.

    3) How does the unifit attach to the toilet? Do you just sit it on top of the unifit?
    The bowl drops into the Unifit.
    And if you ever want to pull the bowl to paint behind the tank, you can lift, paint, and then drop back down without ever changing wax.


    If I switch a 12 inch then I can even go with some kohler ones that are in the 28 inch range.
    If you go with other manufacturers toilets, like a regular 12" rough, then you take whatever that toilet length is, add the space behind, 3/4" to 1-1/4" and then add 2-0" for it being a 14" rough.
    Any manufacturer's insturctions for isntalation of the unifit?


    Toto Vespin II CST474CEFG with SS114 Softclose seat.
    This bowl was installed on a 13-1/2" rough-in using the 14" Unifit adapter.
    The water shutoff can be as close as 5-1/2" to the left of center, unless it's higher off the floor, and then it can be even closer to center.
    This shutoff had been replaced with a new 1/4 turn valve with brass nipple through the wall.
    Installation was by James Love of Love Plumbing & Remodel 206-949-5683
    In some of the older Seattle homes, the old toilets had been wall mounted tank toilets.
    Those typically are 14" rough-in and need a flange repair to use standard closet bolt connections at the flange.
    Everything is on the truck for that.
    The Vespin comes with a standard 12" adapter or you can order a 10" or 14" adapter depending on your rough-in distance.
    Last edited by Terry; 04-10-2010 at 05:20 AM.

  12. #12
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    Here is an elegant solution



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  13. #13
    Moderator & Master Plumber hj's Avatar
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    That one would fit IF you have the depth, which is seldom the case. It does not fit a cast iron pipe, and the cast iron offsets of that type are VERY difficult to make a lead/oakum joint at the rear UNDER the offset and require even greater depth to install.

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