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Thread: Please help me choose a softener for a well with iron

  1. #31
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akpsdvan View Post
    Thought that we where talking about Peak flow, not constant flow... if I was doing 12 gpm flow 24/7 then it would be either a 2 cubic foot or 2.5 cubic foot and a 1.5 inch valve... and I most likely would dump the turbo because of a max flow of 17gpm. But the sizing of the unit would also have to work with the flow out put of the well pump....... only a fool puts a unit needing 12gpm backwash on a 7gpm well pump.
    I said peak demand and constant SFR. The constant SFR is controlled by the volume of resin, nothing more. The 1.5 cuft of resin has a 12 gpm SFR, exceed the 12 gpm and the resin can't remove all the hardness.

    The pump chart I posted shows a 12 hp 10 gpm pump delivering 11 up to 16 gpm depending on the 'head' of the system, yet you disagree. What do you base the disagreement on other than the gpm rating of the pump, because that is shown to not be true?
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
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  2. #32
    In the Trades Akpsdvan's Avatar
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    Trained in Pumps?
    I know that I am not, I have learned from well drillers with years under their belts.. but guess that mean nothing.

    1.5 can be pushed to 15gpm with pressure loss and leakage... did not say that it would not have that happen..

    The pump curves that you are showing are most likely SQ or SQE or even the SP... but the pump that most still have in the wells are not multi stage pumps.. thus the curves are different.

  3. #33
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Just regular submersible pumps. I did pump work for 18 years as a Goulds dealer.

    Again, I'm not talking max flow of the softener, I'm talking about the max flow the volume of resin can remove the hardness from on a consistent basis.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
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    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  4. #34
    DIY Senior Member Bob999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    The 1.5 cuft of resin has a 12 gpm SFR, exceed the 12 gpm and the resin can't remove all the hardness.
    What is the basis of your assertion? Is this based on published and verified data or just something you have made up?

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob999 View Post
    What is the basis of your assertion? Is this based on published and verified data or just something you have made up?
    Actually it is published because the figures were verified and if you were more than just a person with a softener, such as a knowledgeable water treatment dealer, you'd know where it is published and what I'm talking about..
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

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    DIY Senior Member Bob999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    Actually it is published because the figures were verified and if you were more than just a person with a softener, such as a knowledgeable water treatment dealer, you'd know where it is published and what I'm talking about..
    Until I see a citation for the reference I can only assume you have made it up.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob999 View Post
    Until I see a citation for the reference I can only assume you have made it up.
    Actually the figures were verified and then published. And I cite those figures.

    Previously you have said you don't believe my figures and would use the resin manufactures' figures of 1-5 gpm/cuft. If you know anything about peak demand flow rates of houses, or how to calculate it, it is based on the number of fixtures and the type of those fixtures. If you had a peak demand of say 12 gpm for a 2.5 bathroom house with no big tub and one regular shower head in the showers, you would have to size a softener for that house at 3 cuft, right? How many 3.0 cuft softeners do you think are in that size house?
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  8. #38
    In the Trades Akpsdvan's Avatar
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    I know of a couple,, they are Very nice houses with lots of water flow, and high iron and hardness.
    There are even some Bed and Breakfasts that are running that size..
    There is a Twin 3 cubic that is feeding a 4000 gallon tank that then feeds 5 right now more later what we call cabins, but realy are small vacation homes..
    They where sized based on well production, useage and water comp hardness.

  9. #39
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akpsdvan View Post
    I know of a couple,, they are Very nice houses with lots of water flow, and high iron and hardness.
    There are even some Bed and Breakfasts that are running that size..
    There is a Twin 3 cubic that is feeding a 4000 gallon tank that then feeds 5 right now more later what we call cabins, but realy are small vacation homes..
    They where sized based on well production, useage and water comp hardness.
    I am talking the peak demand flow rate gpm of the house. Not how many gallons are used a day.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  10. #40
    In the Trades Akpsdvan's Avatar
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    Does the starter of this question have any clue as to what is going on?
    They are gone and we are over their head if they are still around..

    Depending on the Application as to how often Every point is going to be used at the same time... some it will never happen , others it might once a year while others might only it once every 10 years...

    There is a balance to find a point for any system, be it softener or other so that it can hit that peak but still do the normal every day runs with out causing problems by getting to big, to be sized soly based on that High end flow rate is going to be a head ache for the half flow of high end.

  11. #41
    DIY Senior Member Bob999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    Actually the figures were verified and then published. And I cite those figures.

    Previously you have said you don't believe my figures and would use the resin manufactures' figures of 1-5 gpm/cuft. If you know anything about peak demand flow rates of houses, or how to calculate it, it is based on the number of fixtures and the type of those fixtures. If you had a peak demand of say 12 gpm for a 2.5 bathroom house with no big tub and one regular shower head in the showers, you would have to size a softener for that house at 3 cuft, right? How many 3.0 cuft softeners do you think are in that size house?
    Gary, as I said, until you provide the citation I will continue to believe you made them up. As to my posts about resin manufacturers specifications I recall what I said a bit differently but that is not really the point. The point is that you posted that: "The 1.5 cuft of resin has a 12 gpm SFR, exceed the 12 gpm and the resin can't remove all the hardness." You also posted: "The resin won't remove all the hardness when the constant SFR gpm of the volume of resin is exceeded."

    My concern is that these statement are misleading.

    As as been discussed in other threads the specifications for Purolite standard high capacity resin provide leakage data at 5 gpm per cubic foot of resin and even at a flow rate of 5 gpm there is hardness leakage--the resin doesn't remove all the hardness at a flow rate of 5 gpm. At higher flow rates/cubic foot hardness leakage increases.

    My concern aside I am seeking the basis for your specific quantification of the flow rates that will produce acceptable water quality in a residential setting. Also as has been discussed in other threads the objective in a typical residential application is not to remove all the hardness. The WQA rates water with less than 1 grain per gallon as "soft" even though it still contains some hardness.

    In the current thread we are discussing a 1.5 cubic foot softener and the max flow through the softener that can occur and still provide acceptable water quality. I think there is total agreement that flows greater than 5 gpm per cubic foot of resin can occur and still produce less than 1 grain of hardness.

    You are posting that if the flow exceeds 8 gpm per cubic foot of resin then "the resin can't remove all the hardness". I think what you really mean is that the water will have hardness greater than 1 grain per gallon. You have, in other threads said that the volume of resin is what determines the "SFR". You also say for a 1 cubic foot softener the SFR is 9 gpm but then you assert that the SFT for a 1.5 cubic foot softner is 12 gpm (and this equals 8 gpm/cubic foot of resin).

    So it is the inconsistencies that cause me to again ask for the source of the data you continually assert. I agree that flow rates of greater than 5 gpm/cubic foot of resin will provide acceptable water quality in a residential setting but I am unaware of data that provides a basis for saying any specific number is the cut off such as you are asserting.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akpsdvan View Post
    Does the starter of this question have any clue as to what is going on?
    They are gone and we are over their head if they are still around..
    The subject of this thread is:
    Please Help me choose a softener for a well with iron. And it will get a lot of views and come up in many sereaches here in the future. So the on going discussion is appropriate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akpsdvan View Post
    Depending on the Application as to how often Every point is going to be used at the same time... some it will never happen , others it might once a year while others might only it once every 10 years...

    There is a balance to find a point for any system, be it softener or other so that it can hit that peak but still do the normal every day runs with out causing problems by getting to big, to be sized soly based on that High end flow rate is going to be a head ache for the half flow of high end.
    It's not when Every point (fixture) is used, I size as to how many people in the house, how many bathrooms and what type of tubs and showers they have and whether they are used and if so how frequently (a balance as you say) but, codes do say to count all fixtures using the fixture count method and I don't do that because consumers say they don't have all fixtures running at once, and I agree. And actually you are agreeing with what I am saying. Bob999, take note.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob999 View Post
    Gary, as I said, until you provide the citation I will continue to believe you made them up.
    That's your choice Bob but you are wrong. The figures are produced by equipment suppliers for the various sized softeners they sell. The last time I told you that you said you wouldn't use those figures. And here you are again being disagreeable simply to be disagreeable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob999 View Post
    As to my posts about resin manufacturers specifications I recall what I said a bit differently but that is not really the point. The point is that you posted that: "The 1.5 cuft of resin has a 12 gpm SFR, exceed the 12 gpm and the resin can't remove all the hardness." You also posted: "The resin won't remove all the hardness when the constant SFR gpm of the volume of resin is exceeded."
    Yes I did because it is for the consumption of members reading this and because when they test their water for hardness the result is converted to gpg if it is not stated as gpg. I've told you that before and here you are going on about all the hardness not being removed because there will be X ppm or mg/l still left in the water and you're pickin' nits because I said "remove all the hardness". If a dealer or service guy shows up to fix a softener, we don't test in ppm or mg/l, we test in gpg and if the test shows 0 gpg of hardness, the water is said to be soft water.

    Bob, even 18 megohm DI water, the purest water that man can make, will still have some hardness in it although I'm not sure anyone can measure that hardness in the field.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob999 View Post
    My concern is that these statement are misleading.
    Actually they are correct but you don't believe it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob999 View Post
    As as been discussed in other threads the specifications for Purolite standard high capacity resin provide leakage data at 5 gpm per cubic foot of resin and even at a flow rate of 5 gpm there is hardness leakage--the resin doesn't remove all the hardness at a flow rate of 5 gpm. At higher flow rates/cubic foot hardness leakage increases.
    Actually Bob Purolite says 1-5 gpm per cuft., any ideas why they have that range?

    You could call Purolite and ask them what the leakage would be for a 1.5 cuft softener at a flow rate of 12 gpm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob999 View Post
    My concern aside I am seeking the basis for your specific quantification of the flow rates that will produce acceptable water quality in a residential setting. Also as has been discussed in other threads the objective in a typical residential application is not to remove all the hardness. The WQA rates water with less than 1 grain per gallon as "soft" even though it still contains some hardness.
    Yes, acceptable water in a residential application. And yes that's what the WQA says as all dealers doing residential softening say. I have been telling you that for months here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob999 View Post
    In the current thread we are discussing a 1.5 cubic foot softener and the max flow through the softener that can occur and still provide acceptable water quality. I think there is total agreement that flows greater than 5 gpm per cubic foot of resin can occur and still produce less than 1 grain of hardness.

    I agree that flow rates of greater than 5 gpm/cubic foot of resin will provide acceptable water quality in a residential setting but I am unaware of data that provides a basis for saying any specific number is the cut off such as you are asserting.
    That's correct, acceptable to any residential customer. I agree that you are unaware of the data. And yes, a 1.5 cuft softener will provide acceptable water quality (0 gpg) in a residential application up to 12 gpm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob999 View Post
    You are posting that if the flow exceeds 8 gpm per cubic foot of resin then "the resin can't remove all the hardness". I think what you really mean is that the water will have hardness greater than 1 grain per gallon. You have, in other threads said that the volume of resin is what determines the "SFR". You also say for a 1 cubic foot softener the SFR is 9 gpm but then you assert that the SFT for a 1.5 cubic foot softner is 12 gpm (and this equals 8 gpm/cubic foot of resin).
    You have never seen me say 8 gpm/cuft anywhere.

    What you don't grasp is that when you make a larger softener, that means it has more resin in a larger diameter and height tank and the resin column is spread out some as opposed to simply adding all the additional resin to the depth of the resin bed. It's the depth of the rsin bed that adds to the constant SFR, not the additional width.

    I'E. a 1 cuft is in a 9" x 48" tank and a 1.5 cuft is in a 10" x 54" tank and a 2.0 cuft is in a 12" x 52" tank etc..

    We see that AKpsdvan says he uses smaller diameter and shorter tanks and simply adds more resin.

    If you follow resin manufacturer's recommendations for a minimum 50% freeboard, he is not allowing that. The 50% means 50% of the bed depth as empty space above the resin level in the tank and is required for proper backwashing of teh resin.

    AKpsdvan then uses a Turbulator distributor tube, which means no gravel underbed can be used, and that means a higher pressure loss across the softener. The Turbulator also requires a higher DLFC gpm be used and that means the water use efficiency of that softener is much less than one without a Turbulator distributor tube. But he does agree with what I've been telling you, he just doesn't think the softener should be sized for the total of all fixtures and I agree and don't size as if all the fixtures were running at once.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  14. #44
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    And yet the code in many states requires the softener to be sized as though all fixtures were in use.

  15. #45
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Griffin View Post
    And yet the code in many states requires the softener to be sized as though all fixtures were in use.
    That's right so I expect you are following the code and selling very large and oversized softeners right?
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

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