Water Softener with RO and Ph (acid) Neutralizer Install Help

One of the really frustrating things about posting here is that some simply want to bash other posters. The preceding posts are good examples.

See page 8 in the Fleck 5600 manual below. It specifically discusses how the time for cycles in the filter version vary with the piston chosen.

http://www.pentairwatertreatment.co...eatment/Manuals/5600 Service Manual 40106.pdf

That is why there are 3 pistons for the 5600 standard and a different one for the SE now the SXT 5600......

thinkup said:

Well I won't say that I don't know anything about this stuff .... I've gotten this far haven't I? lol

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Yeah you're getting there but at the beginning not so much. LOL

thinkup said:

Seriously, it goes without saying that I have nowhere near the ability or expertise that the people do here. I'm just trying to weigh who has the most expertise and all the pros v. cons at this point.

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Be careful, from what Bob999 has said or refused to say here since last July, he has no experience other than owning a softener or filter and a solution feeder as a consumer.

thinkup said:

I'm also stuck with the equipment that I have. Though, I can take out that pre-filter with ease. Let me play devils advocare for a moment though ...If I don't have a sand problem and decide to leave the filter in place it won't fill up correct? Won't that empty filter give me about the same pressure as having it off anyway? It's just a thought. I'm about 70% decided on taking it off at this point.

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The point is that even empty it will rob a couple lbs of pressure and you need all you can get for AN mineral. And it's an easy choice to do away with it because you have no need for the prefilter because the AN mineral is a much better 'filter' than the one you chose.

thinkup said:

O man, and that drain line I bought .. it is already kinked! And I have almost no idea what you are suggesting for the drain line so I'll have to do a little research after I get out of work. LOL now I know what people feel like when I toss computer terms at them. Thanks for all the help and I'll post again later.

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LOL, yeah vinyl kinks just looking at it. The PE will be in a coil in a box that they pull out of and measure how much you need by the foot. It is 5/8" OD and we call it 1/2" so get the inset x 1/2 male fitting that fits 5600 and the tubing so you can't pull it off the fitting without splitting the end of the tubing with a knife where it goes on the barbed end of the fitting. The tubing is marked every 18-24" and the box should be marked. It is CTS so the hole won't be exactly 1/2", it will be smaller and require pushing it on the fitting fairly hard. You can use a foot+/- long piece on the softener valve too. Then you can see if resin gets out of the tank and/or if the water is clear during installation when you fill the tank with water with the control in the backwash position.

Bob999 said:

One of the really frustrating things about posting here is that some simply want to bash other posters. The preceding posts are good examples.

See page 8 in the Fleck 5600 manual below. It specifically discusses how the time for cycles in the filter version vary with the piston chosen.

http://www.pentairwatertreatment.co...eatment/Manuals/5600 Service Manual 40106.pdf

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You're right Bob, posting here is difficult when you post incorrect information, like this, and then refuse to accept responsibility for the error and reply with a personal attack whine.

AGAIN you are not comprehending what you are reading. The last few times it was spec sheets, now it is what choice of piston for a backwashed only filter.

So let's look at page 8. It says CYCLE TIMES and Flow Diagrams in the setup/installation section of the 5600 valve Bob. The keyword is TIMES, meaning the time you can set the TIMER for FOR WHATEVER PISTON IS IN THE CONTROL VALVE.

Bob, what causes the piston to move or stay in one position or another if not the TIMER causing the motor to come on and then shut off?

The filter here with a mechanical backwash only 5600 filter version does not allow anyone to set or change any length of TIME of any of the cycle positions REGARDLESS of what piston is in it, period.

Below is a copy of the info on page 8... see the BLACK end plug and filter piston info Bob, that will be or should be the one in his FILTER version of the stock/standard version of the 5600 he has for an AN filter. That does not allow setting the length of time any of the cycle positions run for.

You mistakenly believe he has a choice of changing the piston, he could if he bought one but how does he change the length of time for any of the cycle positions Bob? He'd need to buy a different version of the 5600, and the only choice is the SXT timer unless he was able to find an SE timer; either will require him to buy a new power head.

This page 8 info is for a dealer to order the piston he wants for whatever TIMER he is ordering for the type of filter (or softener) version of the 5600 he is selling.

Cycle Times and Flow Diagrams

1. In Service position. See Figure 4, page 10.

2. Preliminary Rinse position.
— Same as Figure 4, page 10 with standard piston (white end plug) or filter piston (black end plug).
— Eliminated with low water piston (gray end plug).

3. Backwash position.
— Same as Figure 6, page 11 with standard piston.
— 15 minutes with filter piston.
— 7 minutes with low water piston.

4. Brine Rinse position.
— Eliminated, resulting in a 50 minute pause, no water flows during this time.

5. Slow Rinse position.
— Eliminated, resulting in a 50 minute pause, no water flows during this time.

6. Second Backwash position.
— Same as Figure 9, page 12 with standard piston.
— 15 minutes with filter piston.
— 7 minutes with low water piston.

7. Settling Rinse position.
— Same as Figure 10, page 13 with standard or filter piston.
— Eliminate with low water piston.

8. Brine Tank Refill position.
— Eliminated, filter is back in service at this time.

willie G said:

So if I'm keeping score here.

Bob999 has no clue what he is saying so I should not read anything from him
Akpsdvan is a pump and filter guy but he has no clue either and Skip Wolverton is pretty much in the same boat as Akpsdvan so if I need to know anything about filters I guess I should just ignore everyone except Gary Slusser. I think I may need a softener in this flip house so when I get to that point I guess the best thing is to contact Gary Slusser or go to his web site yes?

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I suggest you determine what info is correct and what isn't and then pay attention to who is saying what and act accordingly as to your choice of a dealer to buy from.

AKpsdvan says there are three pistons for the 5600, that is correct, but it sounds as if he is agreeing with Bob999, so ask him how many there are for the stock 5600 filter version we are talking about in this thread.

More bashing and ignorant posting from Gary Slusser


I guess I now need to say that there is more than one frustration-- bashing and ignorance/ inability to read. The following is taken directly from his post:

Cycle Times and Flow Diagrams

3. Backwash position.
— Same as Figure 6, page 11 with standard piston.
— 15 minutes with filter piston.
— 7 minutes with low water piston.


6. Second Backwash position.
— Same as Figure 9, page 12 with standard piston.
— 15 minutes with filter piston.
— 7 minutes with low water piston.

Note that immediately below what the poster made red is a statement that the time is different with the low water piston.

Bob999 said:

First the subject matter of page 8 of the posted manual is:

Model 5600 Backwash Filter Installation & Start-up​

Procedures (Cont’d.)

I guess I now need to say that there is more than one frustration-- bashing and ignorance/ inability to read. The following is taken directly from his post:

3. Backwash position.
— Same as Figure 6, page 11 with standard piston.
— 15 minutes with filter piston.
— 7 minutes with low water piston.


6. Second Backwash position.
— Same as Figure 9, page 12 with standard piston.
— 15 minutes with filter piston.
— 7 minutes with low water piston.

Note that immediately below what the poster made red is a statement that the time is different with the low water piston.

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A low water piston should not be used in an AN or other heavy mineral filter.

Bob, the control valve TIMER controls when and if the piston moves by controlling when and if the motor runs. His timer has no way to be adjusted; it is mechanical with gears and switches only. he gets to set teh time of day on the clock and how many days between backwashes only. Nothing more.

When the motor runs it moves the piston out of whatever cycle position the piston is in and into the next position.

Example, Service, the motor is off and the piston is stationary in the Service position.

When the number of days between backwashes has expired, the timer is mechanically tripped causing the motor to run.

In this case, a backwashed only filter version (without a SE or SXT timer) that trip moves the piston into the backwash cycle position.

The mechanical geared timer controls the length of time the motor is off in the backwash position and then turns the motor on and the piston is moved into the settle rinse position and the timer turns the motor off.

Then the timer gearing times the length of time for the settle rinse position and turns on the motor on when that time expires and the motor comes on and, it moves the piston into the service position.

On this 5600 a number of days goes by and the nonadjustable timer is tripped again and it turns the motor on and moves the piston into the backwash position and then eventually moves the piston into the settle rinse and back to the service position. The only way to make the valve stay in a backwash or settle rinse position is once it is in that position, you unplug the power cord or otherwise shut off power to the control valve.

The length of time will be roughly 20 minutes from Service back to Service, no matter what size tank or what mineral is in the tank. Or what gpm DLFC is used, or the color of the tank, or the color of the wall the filter is installed in front of or by on either side, or the dog's name but.... please tell me the type of power that moves your version of the piston and how that's wired up. Or does gravity somehow move the piston IYO (in your opinion)? How about magnetism, ya think there's a magnet or two somewhere in this version of the 5600 and if so, how do the magnets move the piston, is maybe one stronger than the other?

Anyway, you can believe that the piston controls the length of time in minutes it allows water to run to drain if you want to. You will be wrong but so what. BTW, the 15 minutes is the time the backwash only mechanical version of the 5600 filter control valve runs for in the backwash position.

willie G said:

So if I'm keeping score here.

Bob999 has no clue what he is saying so I should not read anything from him
Akpsdvan is a pump and filter guy but he has no clue either and Skip Wolverton is pretty much in the same boat as Akpsdvan so if I need to know anything about filters I guess I should just ignore everyone except Gary Slusser. I think I may need a softener in this flip house so when I get to that point I guess the best thing is to contact Gary Slusser or go to his web site yes?

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LOL. I guess it's time for me to post my resume. One of us does this about once a month. so here goes. I join a Kinetico outfit as the warehouse manger in 1990. I had no clue what a softener was or how they worked. After about a year, I was promoted to service tech. You think I may have done something right? After a year as a tech, I was ask to be the service manger of an Eco outfit, Not bad for someone that does not know what he is doing, but yet I seem to be getting a lot of promotions. What gives? After 8 years I joined Texas Water as a salesman. I guess I just could not handle all those repairs that I don't know anything about. I made district manager of the Austin sales area within 9 months after posting 2 record breaking sales in a month.. Not much of a go getter am I? I left Tx in 2003 and moved to Ocala, Fl to be closer to my mother. She is in her golden years and would be the last time I get to spend time with her. Why did mother raise such an inconciderate son? I got a job as a service tech/saleman with the local Eco dealer. Went from there to an Ionics outfit to sell. Worked there for a year and left to open my own company. Now, 3 years later, I am getting calls to fix computerized units I've never seen before, but according to somewone here, I don't know how to program them. Then why would the unit work after I left? I have gained a contract to install a well known companies softeners. I am in the field daily. I see and do a lot but don't seem to learn anything according to some here. I guess that's why my customers call me back 2-3 years later. One thing I have learned after 20 years in the water treatment industry, not to pay to much mind to people that change everytime a new wigget comes out. I have seen saleman sell the new wigget and when they don't work, they leave it up to the service tech to handle the irrate customer. My guess is you should all do your homework before trusting what neg. remarks are posted on here. Some of us are here to help others, not critize those that disagree with them.

Gary Slusser said:

Anyway, you can believe that the piston controls the length of time in minutes it allows water to run to drain if you want to. You will be wrong but so what. BTW, the 15 minutes is the time the backwash only mechanical version of the 5600 filter control valve runs for in the backwash position.

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I don't believe I ever posted that "the piston controls the length of time in minutes it allows water to run to drain" as stated by Gary Slusser. This is a familiar tactic he uses--misrepresent another posters views and then post his "correct" view.

What I actually posted was "Electronic valves allow varying the cycle times--something not available on the 5600 (except by changing the piston) " and Gary's post of the material from page 8 of the service manual for the 5600 valve shows that the backwash time varies depending on the piston used. This is fully consistent with my post and supports my post.

Enough of dealing with mud slinging and crap from a salesman who sells from a no fixed address mobile home and does not even know the important details of the merchandise he sells.

Skip, is Bob999 right about the minutes a 5600 filter version without a SE or SXT timer runs for being controlled by the type of piston in the control valve or is he wrong?

I ask because you sell them and I haven't sold any 5600 in any version in like a year, plus that last one was on a softener and it was the first in a number of years after never selling one on a heavy mineral filter in all my 23 years but... I have serviced a large number of heavy mineral filters using the 5600 mechanical filter version 5600. Plus I think I'm older than you and, I may have more hair.

p.s. someday we might get around to comparing sales records and walnut plaques.

thinkup said:

Well I won't say that I don't know anything about this stuff .... I've gotten this far haven't I? lol
Seriously, it goes without saying that I have nowhere near the ability or expertise that the people do here. I'm just trying to weigh who has the most expertise and all the pros v. cons at this point. I'm also stuck with the equipment that I have. Though, I can take out that pre-filter with ease. Let me play devils advocare for a moment though ...If I don't have a sand problem and decide to leave the filter in place it won't fill up correct? Won't that empty filter give me about the same pressure as having it off anyway? It's just a thought. I'm about 70% decided on taking it off at this point.

O man, and that drain line I bought .. it is already kinked! And I have almost no idea what you are suggesting for the drain line so I'll have to do a little research after I get out of work. LOL now I know what people feel like when I toss computer terms at them. Thanks for all the help and I'll post again later.

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The purpose of a sand seperator is to remove sand or sediment. If you do not have a lot or either, nothing to worry about but make sure you keep the filter clean . Removing the sand or sediment prior to your equipment is to protect the valve from the piston or brine valve being scared. From what I see, there is nothing wrong with the installation. If you start to get flow rate problem because of the pre-filter, it may cause the AN media to cement up.

Gary Slusser said:

This one is wrong; The Fleck head has settings to determine how many days between backwashing and how long the backwash and settling rinse are.

The 5600 he has is a 12 day time clock and he can select the number of days between backwashes but he CAN NOT change how long the backwash and settling rinse are. That is one of the biggest reasons why the non electronic version 5600 is a bad choice for heavy mineral filters. Another reason is it is a 3/4" valve and he will not backwash his AN mineral as well as a 1" valve would.

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Gary, this is where I believe you don't understand. In this case, the 5600 has a 5 gpm drain flow control and you say it will not backwash the AN "as well" as the 1" valve. Wouldn't the 1" valve have the same drain flow control, 5 gpm? If you are not flowing anymore water, how could you get a better backwash? You can not! It will be the same flow of water whether you use a 3/4" valve or a 2' valve. It's like telling me I can fill a pool up faster using a firehose vs a garden hose both of which have a flow controller in it.

Gary Slusser said:

No one is saying or has said that the 5600 won't do the job. The question is IF the mineral will be sufficiently backwashed (cleaned) by the control valve being used; a 5600 here that has no means of lengthening the time the backwash cycle position runs for in minutes.


You are saying tank, it is the mineral in the tank Bob. AN mineral is very heavy (it is crushed LIMESTONE) and hard to lift regardless the size of the tank. And if the backwash cycle position doesn't run long enough, there will be inadequate "lift" during backwash to clean the mineral. And the length of time in backwash is critical. Not lifting the mineral for a long enough period of time will cause the mineral to inadequately do its job but more importantly, the pressure loss across the filter will increase. By the time Thinkup realizes the problem exists, the mineral will have to be replaced because it is too 'dirty' to be able to backwashed clean.


This changing the time in backwash by changing the piston stuff Bob.... what are you talking about?

The piston has absolutely nothing to do with how long a backwash or settle rinse runs for. So please explain what you are talking about and correct you error.

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Changing the piston does change the time the "backwash port" is open.

Gary Slusser said:

Skip, is Bob999 right about the minutes a 5600 filter version without a SE or SXT timer runs for being controlled by the type of piston in the control valve or is he wrong?

I ask because you sell them and I haven't sold any 5600 in any version in like a year, plus that last one was on a softener and it was the first in a number of years after never selling one on a heavy mineral filter in all my 23 years but... I have serviced a large number of heavy mineral filters using the 5600 mechanical filter version 5600. Plus I think I'm older than you and, I may have more hair.

p.s. someday we might get around to comparing sales records and walnut plaques.

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In my opinion you are both right. By changing the piston, you are changing the time the "port is open". You can not change the amount of time the "valve" has the port open. Also Gary, the motor runs 24/7. Nothing on the 5600 turns on and off the motor.

As Bugs said...

"I know that I should have taken that left turn at Albuquerque"

So has this thread.

The first question was simple by a home owner as to how to put things in , NOT the pros and cons of what he bought, but how to install and use.!

Bob999 said:

I don't believe I ever posted that "the piston controls the length of time in minutes it allows water to run to drain"

What I actually posted was "Electronic valves allow varying the cycle times--something not available on the 5600 (EXCEPT BY CHANGING THE PISTON) "

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Bob, what does "except by changing the piston" mean if not changing the length of the minutes the cycles run for? Were you suggesting using a different piston than the filter piston?

BTW, I didn't mention your other error, not only electronic valves allow varying the cycle times, Fleck makes mechanical control valve timers, like the 2510, that allow for changing the minutes the cycle positions run for.

Bob999 said:

Enough of dealing with mud slinging and crap from a salesman who sells from a no fixed address mobile home and does not even know the important details of the merchandise he sells.

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This is a perfect example of you misrepresenting information Bob. You know I have a permanent address and that I live in our motor home, plus, you KNOW I would not sell the filter version of the mechanical 5600!

Would you want to tell me again that the Clack WS-1 CS doesn't allow changing the minutes of run time for various cycle positions as you did a week or two ago but now say "Electronic valves allow varying the cycle times

Gary Slusser said:

This is a perfect example of you misrepresenting information Bob. You know I have a permanent address and that I live in our motor home,

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There you go again misrepresenting what I posted.

I said nothing about your permanent address or where you live.

What I posted was that YOU ARE A SALESMAN AND THAT YOU SELL FROM A NO FIXED ADDRESS MOBIL HOME.

I note that you don't deny that my statement is true.

Rather you appear to try to fuzz up the issue with misdirection and irrelevancies.

Gary Slusser said:

Would you want to tell me again that the Clack WS-1 CS doesn't allow changing the minutes of run time for various cycle positions as you did a week or two ago but now say "Electronic valves allow varying the cycle times

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Good luck in supporting that wild allegation. It didn't happen. You are imagining it.

Gary Slusser said:

BTW, I didn't mention your other error, not only electronic valves allow varying the cycle times, Fleck makes mechanical control valve timers, like the 2510, that allow for changing the minutes the cycle positions run for.

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This is another example of misrepresentation or ignorance/inability to read.

In commenting on non-electonic valves in this thread I posted only about the Fleck 5600.

I did not mention or allude to other electromechanically controlled valves.

HOLY COW ...LOL I just got home and quickly read all that I missed out on today. To be honest I'll have to re-read it all a few times to wrap my head around it all.

Ok, back to work ...well not tonight but in my head anyway .... My thought process right about now is to leave everything as I have it setup now while adding some sort of funnel at the air gap to prevent possible spillage and do as Gary suggested and take back the 1/2 tubing I have and get something more rugged. I can't remember who made the other suggestion, but I like the idea of using the more rugged clear tubing and then going into the PVC on the wall. I'm going to have to read all the suggestions one more time on that one too. Then up the wall with 3/4 PVC and then down the basement in 3/4 PVC to the drain line for the septic. Should be a blast. O man and does that purple PVC glue stuff STINK!

Then once I have it all setup like this .... we can tackle these pistons and backwash settings and the softener. Don't forget I have an RO system lying around freaking me out too ROFL!

This is my first home water filter setup and I'm ok with getting it all going and then having to make changes later. I just don't want to eff up my plumbing, get mineral or resin or crap in the lines, screw up the drain, set the house on fire, poison myself, or have no water pressure left to shower. OOOoooo, I do have a tankless hot water heater as well. If this pre-filter doesn't end up having a good home in the front of everything ...might it make sense to put it in front of the tankless hot water heater? I don't have any filter in front of that now.

With any luck, my goal is to crank this system up this weekend!! Even though there is some craziness going on in here, I still want to thank everyone for making this forum a lively one! We'll get this all going one way or another and then we can all debate on the best settings I can get out of my equipment. Thanks guys!