Water Softener with RO and Ph (acid) Neutralizer Install Help

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Bob999

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Please post your water analysis again--this thread has gotten so long finding it if it is posted is difficult.
Hardness 10?
Iron and manganese (I will assume none)
pH
City or well.

I understand you have a 1 cubic foot unit with SST-60 resin and your AN filter has calcite (only). You say two people in the household--I will assume 60 gallons per person per day unless you have better specific information for your water usage.

If you have iron in your water the 4 day regen for the AN filter is good. If no iron then 7 days would be my recommendation.

You should program your softener so that it regenerates every 8 days based on average use so determine the capacity used in 8 days--2 people @ 60 gal per day equals 120 gallons at 10? GPG hardness is 1200 GPD or 9600 for 8 days--round up to 10,000 grains of capacity. Now you need to deal with reserve capacity because the softener is typically set up to regenerate in the middle of the night (only) and there needs to be sufficient reserve capacity to ensure there will be soft water between the time the meter reaches the capacity setting and the regeneration time. The specifics of reserve are determined by the valve (and the specific model with the Clack WS1) and programmer choice. Once you determine the total capacity needed (10,000 grains plus reserve) this will determine the salt dose. You can refer to the literature for SST-60 resin to determine the relationship between salt dose and capacity. The literature is for new resin and most installers also include a factor to account for the fact that the regeneration efficiency will degrade a bit over time.

Set day override to 8 to ensure regeneration at least every 8 days.
 

Gary Slusser

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Well it's alive and it appears to be running well. I'll post more pics if anyone is interested.

I took out the pre-filter before the AN in the end.

I had the AN-Filter up and running a day or two first and not a drop of water pressure lost that was noticeable. I could get a sense of the limestone smell and the water tasted different. Is that normal? Is drinking limestone safe?

The softener came on line next and I programmed as per the instructions in the last post from Waterman824. We are only a two person household with one bath and SST-60 (I think) resin. So do those instructions seem about right for me?

Speaking of drinking water, having resin softened water is ok to drink? It's just weird to think about I guess?

O, and RO system went in easy. Not a problem at all with that.

I'll post a follow up post for others as a reference with some final photos in a bit as well. I'll leave out the part where I thought I had the water supply off and didn't and almost flooded the basement with water and soaked the electrical breaker box and all that too. :)
You can smell limestone!... yes it is safe to drink the water, the limestone is approved for potable water use.

A softener adds 7.85 mg of sodium to each liter of softened water per gpg of compensated hardness being removed. I.E. I just had a phone call and this added sodium was mentioned. And his 17 gpg hard water will have 133.45 mg per liter of added sodium. 7.85 mg/l per gpg 17 = 133.45. A liter is roughly a quart of your water. A slice of white bread usually has 120 to 160 mg of sodium per slice. V8 juice 530-560 per 8 oz glass etc. etc..

Their instructions are full of errors in setup and installation parts. They talk as if all their customers have the same size softener and AN filter.

The programming is going to cause you to use a lot of water that is not necessary and they are using the maximum salt dose so your salt efficiency is going to be terrible.

You probably use 60 gals/person/day instead of 75, and then they go on to say to subtract a days worth of gallons/capacity...

The calendar override is too long.
 

thinkup

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Thanks Bob and Gary for following up, you're life savers!

"You can smell limestone!." ROFL ...well who knows what I'm smelling. I drive everyone nuts with everything that I can smell. Either way it did smell different when it was just the AN. Now that the softener is running too I don't smell it.

I figured their instructions where one size fits all. When Bob pointed me in the direction of a little research, I knew it for a fact. I have the SST-60 resin. I read all about it not being FDA approved but being ok as in non-toxic. I also read that it's great because it's so efficient. Well there it goes ...how to I set this thing to take advantage of that fact. I couldn't find any hard and fast numbers. And 60 gallons per day is way more accurate for us. We skimp on water too.

Back to where we started; Two of us living here with a Great Dane and 5 cats. One bathroom for now and the kitchen sink. I have one hose bib not softened and two softened. One I might leave for the car washing. The water pressure is still awesome by the way. In fact I put a new faucet in the kitchen (the acid actually ate right threw the other one) and the pressure seems improved!

10 grains hardness
6.5 or so pH
no iron or mang to speak of
water from the village with good test results etc.

I wanted to put the filters in mainly to fix the pH and to protect the tank-less hot water heater and the boiler setup.

Guys, what do you recommend for my setup as far as programming goes? 7 days on the AN-Filter? What about the softener?
 
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thinkup

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Ok, did some final work here to try to wrap this up. Does this sound right? I really need come clarity here if you guys can help.

AN-Filter - Every 5 days Backwash

2 ppl at 60 gallons per day = 120 gallons x 10 grain hardness = 1,200 grains per day.
32,000 grain softener / 1,200 grains per day = almost 27 days

Should I use the "good rule of thumb" and ignore the 27 days and go with 9 days override or 1080 gallons of water volume between regens?

Below is what I'm thinking of doing. I have the WS1-EE at 32k with SST-60 resin. 2 ppl house, city water at 10 grains hardness and not much else wrong with it. (Other then being acidic. Speaking of which, how much hardness does and AN-Filter usually add?)

Set the system to Soften and not filter
Backwash = 6 mins
Regenerate draw = 60 mins
Second Backwash = to 5 mins
Rinse = 6 mins
Brine fill = 7 mins

Then go into volumetric setup and set for 9 day override and 1080 (or something close if I have to round) gallons of water.

Which "time" or step in this process is the "salt dose"? I know I can skimp on the water and "salt dose" with the resin I have. The 32k softener is probably overkill even for us but it has room to grow. I'm overly concerned with salt leakage but I do want a smart setup with the stuff I have.

I'm using SST-60 resin with only two people in the house and 10 grain hard water from the village with no iron or mang. I will be the first week this weekend with the setup. Should I force it's first regn then?

In my research I've found that about 15lbs of salt puts the 32k back to full capacity but 9lbs will give me back about 27k which seems ok to me. How can I adjust this "salt dose" with the EE I have?
 
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Akpsdvan

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Every 5 days on the AN filter,,, I give that one OK..

On the softener, ever have lots of people over?

If there is no ice maker, ro system or 0.25 gpm .... me, I would set the meter part to 3000 gallon for the weeks that there are lots of people over.. and have the day over ride at 15 days .

Over the next few months keep track of gallons per day ... see how much you use in a 15 day time frame and how the water is from day to day...

Any time that I change the settings or take a unit down the last thing that I will do before leaving a customers place is send the unit into a cleaning cycle to help reset it with the new settings or a full cycle after the cleaning of the injector which is the most likely reason for me to be there in the first place..

This is what I would do and an idea for yourself.
 

thinkup

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SST-60 Standard Operating Conditions

Thanks for the follow up Akpsdvan.

I've found the information for the standard operating conditions from Purolite for SST-60 and I'd like to match up as closely as possible. Does that make sense to try to do that?

The Standard Operating Conditions don't match up "1 for 1" with the EE programing so I'm at a loss a little bit. And I still don't get how to control the "salt dose".

Per Purolite

Backwash - 5 to 20 mins (I choose 6 mins)
Regeneration - 10 mins (Is this my second backwash?)
Rinse (slow) - 12 to 60 mins (Is this my Regenerate Draw?)
Rinse (fast) - 6-30 mins (I have this set to 6 mins?)

I'm a little confused on what the lingo is I suppose.
 
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Akpsdvan

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Thanks for the follow up Akpsdvan.

I've found the information for the standard operating conditions from Purolite for SST-60 and I'd like to match up as closely as possible. Does that make sense to try to do that?

The Standard Operating Conditions don't match up "1 for 1" with the EE programing so I'm at a loss a little bit. And I still don't get how to control the "salt dose".

Per Purolite

Backwash - 5 to 20 mins (I choose 6 mins)
Regeneration - 10 mins (Is this my second backwash?)
Rinse (slow) - 12 to 60 mins (Is this my Regenerate Draw?)
Rinse (fast) - 6-30 mins (I have this set to 6 mins?)

I'm a little confused on what the lingo is I suppose.

Part of their numbers are for the different amounts of media.. then the other part of the numbers are for the water quality...

If all that I have is low iron say under 1ppm and hardness then the backwash most likely will be 8-10 minutes, more iron then I will go with 14-16 minutes.
Regeneration is the brine draw and slow rinse.. that should be 45-60 minutes.
brine draw and slow rinse are the 2 half's of that part of the cycle , the brine will be pulled till there is no more brine and then finish out that time frame with the slow rinse.

Rapid rinse at 6 should work.

Your learning.....
 

thinkup

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Ya I feel like I'm still learning and I have it down at a very very high level I think. Funny this when I started this process I didn't even know you used salt with softeners! I grew up in an apartment with no father and was a computer geek. Now I have a home I'm running my electric wire, building walls, doing plumbing and installing things!!

So correct me if I'm wrong. If I take your info then each time my system goes in gen mode (be it weekly, or every 15 days or based on some water amount) the WS1-EE will do the following:

Step one: It will backwash (I have it set for 6 mins and you are suggesting 8-10mins)
Step two: It will regenerate which is a multi step process. Part one is the "regenerate draw" part two is the "second backwash" and part three is the "rinse". (I have the draw for 60mins, the 2nd wash for 6mins and the rinse for 5mins)
Step three: It will fill the brine tank back up for x number of mins. I have it set to 7 mins.

But still: how can I calculate my "salt dose"?
 

Akpsdvan

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Ya I feel like I'm still learning and I have it down at a very very high level I think. Funny this when I started this process I didn't even know you used salt with softeners! I grew up in an apartment with no father and was a computer geek. Now I have a home I'm running my electric wire, building walls, doing plumbing and installing things!!

So correct me if I'm wrong. If I take your info then each time my system goes in gen mode (be it weekly, or every 15 days or based on some water amount) the WS1-EE will do the following:

Step one: It will backwash (I have it set for 6 mins and you are suggesting 8-10mins)
Step two: It will regenerate which is a multi step process. Part one is the "regenerate draw" part two is the "second backwash" and part three is the "rinse". (I have the draw for 60mins, the 2nd wash for 6mins and the rinse for 5mins)
Step three: It will fill the brine tank back up for x number of mins. I have it set to 7 mins.

But still: how can I calculate my "salt dose"?

I just through moving information from one harddrive to another and then moving that harddrive to another computer that is moving faster and better than my old HP... and now I am working on how to get 2 monitors up and running......... joys....

Back to your fun in the sun...
The clack will do the back wash then move to the brine draw and slow rinse then move the piston to a second back wash and then the rapid rinse and then off to the brine refill.

Salt dose... the 32K is the max on the SST-60 with 15lbs of salt. I would run with 8 lbs of salt , that would let you have a capacity of 25khttp://www.caitechnologies.com/images/PDFs/specs/SST60.pdf
7minutes X ?gpm=?

In the paper work that you got for the unit is there some thing about the brine flow control? .25gpm .50gpm?

If the control is .5gpm then 5 minutes 34 seconds will be realy close to the 8 lbs....
If at the .5gpm you do 6 minutes that will be 9 lbs..... or just over the 25k on the SST-60
 

thinkup

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Thanks for all the help Akpsdvan. I'm a computer geek by trade and work at a large housing authority in the IT department by day. I wear many hats there but my day to day office has a nice big three 22" monitor setup on it. If you need any computer advice or help let me know and I'm sure I can set you in the right direction.

As for the salt dose; I read the SST-60 lit and had the same thought that between 8 and 10lbs would be great for me. Using the full 15lbs to get all the way to 32K just seemed like a waste.

In my book I have steps:
2CT Softening or Filter
3CT Backwash between 1 and 20 mins
4CT Regenerate Draw 1 to 99 mins
5CT Second Backwash 1 to 20 mins
6CT Rinse 1 to 20 mins
7CT Fill .1 to 99.0 mins or off. Says the refill flow control is 2.2 gpm or 8.3 lpm. Then says All other valves are shipped from the factory with refill flow of 0.5 gpm or 1.9 lpm.

Does that mean then a setting of 6 mins for step 5CT(Second Backwash) would give me about a 9lbs salt dose?

So:
2CT = Softening
3CT(Backwash) = 8 mins
4CT(Regenerate Draw) = 60 mins
5CT(Second Backwash) = 6 mins (9lbs salt dose??)
6CT(Rinse) = 6 mins
7CT(Fill) = 7 mins

Here is a link to a manual for what I'm looking at. LOL I feel like I just need the answer guide so I can learn backward from it at this point.
http://www.qualitywatertreatment.com/PDF/Clack_EE_Valve_Service_Manual.pdf
 

Akpsdvan

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Thanks for all the help Akpsdvan. I'm a computer geek by trade and work at a large housing authority in the IT department by day. I wear many hats there but my day to day office has a nice big three 22" monitor setup on it. If you need any computer advice or help let me know and I'm sure I can set you in the right direction.

As for the salt dose; I read the SST-60 lit and had the same thought that between 8 and 10lbs would be great for me. Using the full 15lbs to get all the way to 32K just seemed like a waste.

In my book I have steps:
2CT Softening or Filter
3CT Backwash between 1 and 20 mins
4CT Regenerate Draw 1 to 99 mins
5CT Second Backwash 1 to 20 mins
6CT Rinse 1 to 20 mins
7CT Fill .1 to 99.0 mins or off. Says the refill flow control is 2.2 gpm or 8.3 lpm. Then says All other valves are shipped from the factory with refill flow of 0.5 gpm or 1.9 lpm.

Does that mean then a setting of 6 mins for step 5CT(Second Backwash) would give me about a 9lbs salt dose?

So:
2CT = Softening
3CT(Backwash) = 8 mins
4CT(Regenerate Draw) = 60 mins
5CT(Second Backwash) = 6 mins (9lbs salt dose??)
6CT(Rinse) = 6 mins
7CT(Fill) = 7 mins

Here is a link to a manual for what I'm looking at. LOL I feel like I just need the answer guide so I can learn backward from it at this point.
http://www.qualitywatertreatment.com/PDF/Clack_EE_Valve_Service_Manual.pdf

Even a blind Dog can find a bone from time to time,, and I have the two monitors going........ boy that is a trip to have them going....
Good up to 5CT that is a back wash and nothing else..
The 6CT is good..
Then 7CT is the brine tank refill... at 7 minutes X ?gpm= Salt LBS..
I have the manual for the EE... most likely if the manual is correct you have the .5gpm...
so 7 minutes X .5gpm that will give you 3.5 gallons of water, that 3.5 gallons X 3lbs per gallon will give 10.5 lbs of salt.
 

thinkup

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Ahhhh.

So I had 5CT confused and 7CT.

So is this how it works?

Normally while in service hard water flows down through the resin and then up though the distriuter tube as softwater.

When your capacity runs low you need to regenerate with salty water from the brine tank.

First it switches the flow to have the water go down the tube and up through the resin.

Then it switches to drawing in salty water from the brine tank which goes back to flowing down through the resin and out the drain.

Then once it's done it does an up-flow second backwash and then a downflow fast rinse.

Then it fills the brine tank up with water again which will be your "salt dose" the next time you need to regenerate. If I set that step (7CT) to 6 mins at .5 gpm that will give me 3 gallons of water or 9 salt pounds.

For what it's worth, I put 5 gallons of water in the brine tank when I first filled it with salt. Does that mean my first salt dose will be 15lbs of salt? And won't that kick my float into action to prevent to much water filling it? O man what's going to happen then?!
 
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Akpsdvan

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60 minutes on the draw and slow rinse in fine.... no problem there...
7CT will be filling the salt tank,brine tank time that you set based on refill rate and time needed for 3lbs per gallon of water.
 
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