(206) 949-5683, Top Rated Plumber, Seattle
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 21

Thread: well pump ground wire

  1. #1
    DIY Junior Member turbotech's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    22

    Default well pump ground wire

    Something about the ground wire dawned on me the other day after having my well pump replaced.
    The original pump that failed had 2-wire 12 gauge w/o ground.

    The new pump had 2-wire 12 gauge w/ ground. The installers simply connected the new ground wire to the well cap. They did not run it back to the pressure switch at the tank and to the electrical panel. Therefore, there still can be a voltage difference between the well case and panel / house ground rod.

    Did the way they wired to the well case meet code? It doesn't seem like it would to me.

  2. #2
    Previous member
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    North of the Mason dixon Line
    Posts
    1,150

    Default

    Ground is ground. It's grounded at the well and if your house is wired correctly it's grounded also.

  3. #3
    DIY Junior Member turbotech's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    22

    Default

    What is the purpose of this new ground wire?
    If a hot wire breaks and hits the well case then the ckt breaker will trip with the old 2-wire w/o ground.

    If a hot wire breaks and hits the well cap with the new 2-wire w/ ground then the ckt breaker trips. If the well cap was designed for a good electrical connection then the new 2-wire w/ ground wouldn't be necessary. Why not just run a good connection between the cap and casing instead of hundreds of feet of wire that could fail?

    If a hot wire breaks and dangles in the water then it would try to short out through the case........because after a couple of years the poor electrical connection from the 2-wire w/ ground cap to case is now an open and no longer connects the cap to ground.

    It just seems pointless to me at this time to have the extra ground wire which cost me an extra $650.

  4. #4
    Test, Don't Guess! cacher_chick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Land of Cheese
    Posts
    3,142

    Default

    All new pumps have an attachment for an equipment grounding conductor. For it to be properly connected, a new wire would have to be run from the panel to the well. Most pump installers do not replace the wiring between the well and the panel because it would be additional parts and labor that most customers would not want to pay for.

  5. #5
    DIY Junior Member turbotech's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    22

    Default

    I completely agree. The only proper way to connect the ground is from the pump ground wire to the panel. When they installed my new pump that had a ground wire they said they had to replace the existing 2-wire w/o ground with a new 2-wire w/ground.

    Since there was not an existing ground wire from the tank switch to the pump, they just tied the new ground to the well cap. It seems pointless to me why they would do this. They said they had to do this to meet code. All I could think is that there is no way it meets code just connecting it to the well cap. The existing 2-wire was in perfect shape. Yes, it is good insurance to install new wire.

    All grounds should connect back to the panel and the panel has the single point ground connection. That is the only proper way to do it. The way they did it causes ground loops which is bad.

  6. #6

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by turbotech View Post
    What is the purpose of this new ground wire?
    If a hot wire breaks and hits the well case then the ckt breaker will trip with the old 2-wire w/o ground.
    It would? How? There is no path back to the panel to complete the circuit an open the breaker. Sure the well case is grounded to earth but its not bonded to the panel. The current flow from a broken wire would be far too little to trip the breaker.

    -rick

  7. #7
    DIY Junior Member turbotech's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    22

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by drick View Post
    It would? How? There is no path back to the panel to complete the circuit an open the breaker. Sure the well case is grounded to earth but its not bonded to the panel. The current flow from a broken wire would be far too little to trip the breaker.

    -rick
    You are correct. My statement was wrong. I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote that.

    Assuming a max. of 25 ohms at the two ground connections and a 0 ohm path (almost impossible) in the earth itself gives: 220 / (25+25+0) = 4.4 amps. That would not trip the breaker.

    What is the purpose of the new grounding wire? It still seems useless unless connected properly to the panel.
    Last edited by turbotech; 02-23-2010 at 07:38 AM.

  8. #8
    Moderator valveman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Lubbock, Texas
    Posts
    4,156

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by turbotech View Post
    What is the purpose of the new grounding wire? It still seems useless unless connected properly to the panel.
    That is correct but, how many years did it work without a ground wire?

  9. #9
    DIY Junior Member turbotech's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    22

    Default

    The original 2-wire w/o ground GOULDS pump was install in 1990 when the place was first built. So it lasted 20 years. The new Franklin pump ($1200) is a 2-wire w/ground pump. When they said the original 2-wire needed to be upgraded to w/ ground I was OK with it, but not happy about the $1.81/ft wire cost when I new it was online at $0.80-$1.00 / ft.
    I simply said to them to run it if that is what it needs to meet code. Then I saw them finish the install by connecting the ground to the well cap and buttoning it up. All I could think is that no way is that code and why did I just buy $650 worth of wire for nothing.

    It bothers me when I pay good money ($2500) for a job that isn't done right. I would have been content if they said "this wiring we are doing isn't right......you need to wire it to your panel". Instead, they said it now meets code and I am all set. I am normally a DIYer because of stuff like this happening. I consider the $2500 part of an education course. I learned what I need to pull and replace a pump. I picked up steel to make a tripod and a TEE handle this weekend. If I can help one relative or friend replace thier pump for 1/2 the cost of having a company do it then it will be worth the large cost I paid.

  10. #10
    General Engineering Contractor ballvalve's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    northfork, california
    Posts
    3,258

    Default

    Another piece of Gov regulation to keep the mines running, resources wasted, and our hard earned money stuffed in a hole that is a living ground. Snipped off many a ground wire on new pumps, so arrest me! If a wire exists to the panel, by all means use it. That snipped wire will be loved by the destructive lawyers when some dope holds two 6 gauge hot wires in his teeth while stripping them.... not that the ground wire running in the ground would have kept him alive or his teeth from popping out. Its just about liability and no one willing to take any responsibility for being a dope anymore.

    And by the way a piece of bare 10g or 12g wire should be about 8 to 15 cents a foot. Give the guy 20 bucks to unroll it. $650?? platinum wire taped to the pipe by Donald Trump? Better yet, take it to the scrap yard and get 3 bucks a pound for it.
    Last edited by ballvalve; 02-23-2010 at 10:45 AM.

  11. #11
    DIY Junior Member turbotech's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    22

    Default

    When the pump started acting up I looked up material cost. I new what a pump assembly, wire, pipe, etc cost before the well company looked at it. I also tested and new the pump or motor or both was bad. I was unsure if the original 20 year old pump was in the hole.
    Overall, they did a good job installing the pump. They are a known reputable company. The wiring thing is the only black eye. The whole meeting code thing they gave me for installing the $1.81/ft => $650 wire. It was just 3 wire twisted 12 gauge stranded wire 600v submersible. I have no problem with them making a profit on the pump and other stuff (about $600), but I have a problem with them making $330 off of wire that they didn't install right. I believe a company should make a decent profit when doing a good job and/or being honest. All together, the profit was 2500 - (900+400+50+50) = $1,100. I think that is reasonable because it includes the cost of labor and equipment for 2.5 hours of work.

    The grounding thing is the highlight of it all. Yes, I believe a properly grounded 2-wire w/ground will last longer because it would handle a lightning strike better. Right now I have zero lightning protection.

    This brings me to a root cause for me thinking about this.

    What happens if this summer I do get a lightning strike on my pump? I call the insurance company and they look at the well cap and see the ground wire connected to it.............now I am liable because it isn't wired correctly. Is the company that just put the pump in going to cover the cost of the new pump & install. Probably not, they will say that lightning caused the failure. Round and round I go with the insurance and well company pointing fingers. So I get a lawyer and it costs me another $2500.........or I just say screw it and replace the pump myself because I get fed up with the insurance and well company.

    Either way I can't win. If the insurance new I installed it myself and wired it that way then I would have to eat the cost of the new pump. But will the company cover it because they wired it wrong?

    It seems every time I farm out work I get bad luck so something like the lightning strike this summer will probably happen. Every time I do DIY work it always works out fine because I take the time to read/research and do it properly.

    ballvalve,
    I can not and will not judge the way you are installing, but I ask this.......would you cover the cost of the replacement motor due to a lightning strike and the unconnected ground?
    Last edited by turbotech; 02-23-2010 at 11:56 AM.

  12. #12
    Moderator valveman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Lubbock, Texas
    Posts
    4,156

    Default

    I don't think the ground wire makes any difference with lightning. Lightning can do whatever it wants to do. It can hit the ground a mile from your well or any power lines, and still find your well as a ground rod and burn up the motor. Or it can hit right on the top of your well head and not hurt a thing. The extra ground wires didn't even exist until a few years ago. I put in tons of pumps before they came with ground wires. I cut off ground wires on the first few hundred I saw. Now I hook the ground wires up because they are there but, I can't tell they have helped a thing. And yes you can run just an extra single wire with the old 12-2, for pennies compared to replacing all the wire.

  13. #13
    DIY Junior Member turbotech's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    22

    Default

    Thank you. I didn't know the ground wire was a recent addition to the motor. I agree about the lightning strike being unpredictable. The ground wire can help, but it can't be a guarantee that it will save the pump.

    Is it common practice to replace 20 year old wire in a well? I work on a lot of car wiring harnesses so 20 year old wiring is nothing to me. I use it all the time if the insulation is fine and the wire is not corroded.

    I appreciate all helping me with this. Over the next few months I cam going to build some tools. Right now I have the parts for the TEE handle. It is 10' long right now but I am going to cut it down to probably 6' or 8'. I think 8' would be better.

    I have some of the steel for the tripod which I plan to hang a 1hp 12v winch on to do the initial lifting. The tripod legs are 1.5" EMT pipe. I also plan on making a 4' diameter wheel that attached to the well casing so that I can pull the poly pipe using my truck or ATV if space allows (it does at my house). Last, I need to make 2 pairs of vice grip poly pipe holders and a guide for putting the pipe back in the casing without marring it.

    I ended up with a Franklin FPS V-series pump. Originally, I had a Goulds pump. Is there really that much difference between the Goulds, Franklin, and F&W pumps? From an electrical point of view, I prefer the 2-wire pumps over the 3-wire at this point due to installment cost and failure rate.

  14. #14
    DIY Junior Member turbotech's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    22

    Default

    One other thing about the ground wire. When I do installs on a car that have dangling wires I use a piece of sealed heatshrink like the kind used on the well pumps. The kind which oozes glue when heated. I place it over the end of the wire. This allows me to be able to use the wire later on.

    I would recommend doing this on the ground pump wire instead of cutting it off. Just cut the wire so the copper is flush with the insulation, slip on heat shrink half way and heat until the end of the wire is sealed.

  15. #15
    DIY Senior Member thassler's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    106

    Default

    I wouldn't think you wasted any money at all. If my pump makes it 20 years, I'll sure be replacing the 20 year old wire with it. One thing I did notice from your description is that you paid for about 360 feet of 12/3 ? I've no idea the power draw of your pump but if it's 8 amp or more you're looking at close to 5% voltage drop (assuming it's a 240V circuit).
    TreyH
    ** Not a professional - only a DIYr **

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •