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Thread: Kinetico 60: Repair, Rebuild, or Replace?

  1. #16
    In the Trades Akpsdvan's Avatar
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    On the pressure tank, most that I know turn off the well and drain down the pressure tank every few years to blow out any thing that might settle out in the pressure tank and check the air pressure in the tank at the same time.
    If you could re-work the lay out of the system it would help with pressure.
    2 words for that ... Sharkbite, Aqua Pex...
    Try to remove as many elbows as possible, replace an elbow with a sweeping turn when possible.
    Lay out for me would be well , pressure tank, spin down , brown filter(whole house) full flow ball valves before and after each of the filters, 3 could be used.. one on the out side of the 2 with one in the middle... makes things nice when changing or working on one of the filters.
    Re-work the 3 gate valve bypass for the kinetico to a three ball valve bypass..

    All the while working to remove elbows with sweeping turns when possible, and only using elbows when NEEDED....

    This is what I would try to do... for the brown filter you might put a 1X6 on the wall so that you could put a bracket on the filter head and wall for support of the total housing.

  2. #17
    DIY Junior Member Frugal-Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akpsdvan View Post
    On the pressure tank, most that I know turn off the well and drain down the pressure tank every few years to blow out any thing that might settle out in the pressure tank and check the air pressure in the tank at the same time.
    Good Idea! We've never done that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akpsdvan View Post
    If you could re-work the lay out of the system it would help with pressure.
    2 words for that ... Sharkbite, Aqua Pex...
    I'd noticed Sharkbite in the stores, but didn't give it much thought. That and Pex would make a re-layout fairly simple.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akpsdvan View Post
    Try to remove as many elbows as possible, replace an elbow with a sweeping turn when possible.
    Lay out for me would be well , pressure tank, spin down , brown filter(whole house)
    Does the Kinetico fit between the spin down and the brown filter? I assume the meter still goes after the brown filter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akpsdvan View Post
    full flow ball valves before and after each of the filters, 3 could be used.. one on the out side of the 2 with one in the middle... makes things nice when changing or working on one of the filters.
    Re-work the 3 gate valve bypass for the kinetico to a three ball valve bypass..
    Sounds like the ball valves have less resistance in addition to ease of use.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akpsdvan View Post
    All the while working to remove elbows with sweeping turns when possible, and only using elbows when NEEDED....

    This is what I would try to do... for the brown filter you might put a 1X6 on the wall so that you could put a bracket on the filter head and wall for support of the total housing.
    With Pex, it definitely will need support for the spin down, brown filter, and meter.

    Thank you very much. I'm really glad I added that picture.

    Mike
    If it sounds like I know what I'm doing, I haven't written clearly enough.

  3. #18
    In the Trades Akpsdvan's Avatar
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    That photo helps ....

    I only use the filters like the brown one after a softener for carbon block if needed..

    That brown filter could stay or be left out if the spin down does the job, you might leave the brown one in line, just no filter in the sump,(part that hangs down) and it is there if needed later in time.

    The ball valves are better when it comes time to stop the water,,, a move from with the line to 90 or across the line stops the flow of water, and if there is some thing like sand in the water the ball 99 out of 100 could care less about that, the gate will have challenges fulling closing after some time because of the build up in the spot where the gate goes into when closed.


    The meter could go in any where in the water flow... would not make a defference where...

    I use 60 gallons per day per person... there are some that use more, and some that use less..

    I know that if the toilet is only flushed when needed not just after a use... that will save water and cut down on the 60 gpdpp....

    There are 90 bends for the pex that have a spot for a screw to hold it to a wall or some thing..

  4. #19
    DIY Junior Member Frugal-Mike's Avatar
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    I fear this project is going at a glacial pace. I still haven't taken the Kinetico 60 apart yet but I've spent some time thinking about how I would layout things differently. Though sharkbites and pex might be easier, I've decided that, since everything else in the house is copper, I would continue to use copper. It fits with the rest of this 36 year old house. I've tried to limit elbows, but there's no way around using some of them. Is it worthwhile to go with long radius elbows to improve flow?

    I also noticed that Pentek has filter housings that have optional differential pressure gauges to tell you when a filter needs changing. I thought about putting individual pressure gauges at each end and between the filters and the softener to help me know when a filter needs to be cleaned/changed. Does this make any sense or is it a waste of money?

    Since I'm I software guy, I've created a diagram of what I have in mind. Let me know what you think?
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  5. #20
    In the Trades Akpsdvan's Avatar
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    I like the lay out, but yes I would change a few things.. old filter after the rusco and before the softener.
    Ball valves while more than gates will give fewer problems down the road and close better than gates.
    Long reach elbows will be less of a pressure drop than the short elbows.
    The white line that goes up, where does it come back in with the new stuff that you are doing?
    Water will go the easiest way.. if it has a choice in going straight or going down the path of your treatment sysetm it will go straight.
    PSI gauges are good, but unless they are the oil filled will last a few years.

    On the meter, if the pipes to and from are 3/4 then the meter should be 5/8"

    If you are going to use copper and there is nothing wrong with using it, learn how to clean, flux and soder the fittings together... NO water and Clean fittings...

  6. #21
    In the Trades Akpsdvan's Avatar
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    The sites reset and time change makes PM right now near impossible..

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    DIY Junior Member Frugal-Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akpsdvan View Post
    I like the lay out, but yes I would change a few things.. old filter after the rusco and before the softener.
    The old filter currently has a activated charcoal filter in it, but I don't think it adds any value. I was thinking about leaving it empty like you described in a previous post. I would have thought that it would be better to have the softener remove the iron before it gets to that filter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akpsdvan View Post
    Ball valves while more than gates will give fewer problems down the road and close better than gates.
    Yep. I had thought to save a few bucks but had changed my mind and just hadn't switched them back to ball valves in the diagram.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akpsdvan View Post
    Long reach elbows will be less of a pressure drop than the short elbows.
    I haven't seen them at big box stores or the local hardware store though I can get them online.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akpsdvan View Post
    The white line that goes up, where does it come back in with the new stuff that you are doing?
    Water will go the easiest way.. if it has a choice in going straight or going down the path of your treatment sysetm it will go straight.
    Sorry, I should have labeled that. The top is the line coming in from the pump. The bottom of that line is the pressure tank.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akpsdvan View Post
    PSI gauges are good, but unless they are the oil filled will last a few years.
    That bumps up the price a bit. I may just skip them since the Rusco has a clear housing to see when it needs to be cleaned and the old filter will probably be empty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akpsdvan View Post
    On the meter, if the pipes to and from are 3/4 then the meter should be 5/8"
    Oops. I purchased a new 3/4 x 3/4 version of one of these with pulse output on Epay for $30 including shipping a while back. Should I expect to lose accuracy because of the larger size? Oh well, I suspect it will be better than nothing, which is what we've always had.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akpsdvan View Post
    If you are going to use copper and there is nothing wrong with using it, learn how to clean, flux and soder the fittings together... NO water and Clean fittings...
    I installed a new shower valve last year using sweat fittings so I've had a little practice. I'll have a lot more practice by the time this is done.
    If it sounds like I know what I'm doing, I haven't written clearly enough.

  8. #23
    In the Trades Akpsdvan's Avatar
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    If you need to have a carbon block for some smell, then the larger housing and head would be better, better flow through the filter less psi drop and yes the carbon should be after the softener so all that the carbon has to deal with is smell..

    Save now, pay later... you will thank yourself if you spend the few extra dollars now as there will not be the replacement of the gates later and when you close the ball valve it is Closed, no need of trying 2 or 3 times to get the gate closed..
    as a extra if the need should come up that you need to turn the water off where ever, that ball valve is closed with in 1 second,,,, not the turn turn turn turn and turn some more to stop the water flow..


    The long turn elbows are found at the Plumping shops or at some places on line, most DIY do not use them, not to say that you can't , they do take up a little more space, but do lower the psi drop..

    It would be good to have one or two in that stream some place to help track what is going on, but the shower is a very good spot to learn the psi from a plugging filter as it goes from hitting the face to hitting the chest... time to change some thing. How old is the one on the pressure tank and how good is it?

    So you are going to have a really big brass TEE? in front of the pressure tank? ceiling to floor and about 4' off the floor go to the treatment system? and a plug on the other side of the pressure tank TEE? that will work..

    3/4 meter should work, for what you are looking at doing , should do it,,, normally when I am putting a meter in for turning on a chem pump I size down just a little on the meter.. making sure that the meter sees the water... one of the things that I learned from a man that does meters, pumps , chem feed for 35 years.. and that is all that he does.

    Good to hear that you have already had a run at the cleaning and fluxing the copper,,, that will come in handy and what a challenge it is if there is water in the line that you are working on ...

  9. #24
    DIY Junior Member Frugal-Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akpsdvan View Post
    If you need to have a carbon block for some smell, then the larger housing and head would be better, better flow through the filter less psi drop and yes the carbon should be after the softener so all that the carbon has to deal with is smell..
    I think I'll leave it where it is then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akpsdvan View Post
    Save now, pay later... you will thank yourself if you spend the few extra dollars now as there will not be the replacement of the gates later and when you close the ball valve it is Closed, no need of trying 2 or 3 times to get the gate closed..
    as a extra if the need should come up that you need to turn the water off where ever, that ball valve is closed with in 1 second,,,, not the turn turn turn turn and turn some more to stop the water flow..
    There are ball valves at both ends so turning off the water quickly is not an issue. The gate valves for the bypass have worked OK for many years, but I'll look them over carefully when I have everything apart and won't hesitate to replace them with ball valves if they don't look good on the inside.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akpsdvan View Post
    The long turn elbows are found at the Plumping shops or at some places on line, most DIY do not use them, not to say that you can't , they do take up a little more space, but do lower the psi drop..
    According to this site, long radius 3/4 elbows are equivalent to 2.3 ft of straight pipe and regular radius are 4.4. For the 5 elbows in the main flow, the total difference adds up to equal to 10.5 ft of pipe. For this house, that's probably not significant.

    The business with the gate valves and elbows is less about cost and more about wanting to reuse existing parts if they're in good shape. There's a good chance that I'll find that these parts are not usable or are too much work to desolder and clean up for reuse. If so, I'll go with new ball valves and long radius elbows.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akpsdvan View Post
    It would be good to have one or two in that stream some place to help track what is going on, but the shower is a very good spot to learn the psi from a plugging filter as it goes from hitting the face to hitting the chest... time to change some thing. How old is the one on the pressure tank and how good is it?
    The existing pressure tank gauge is probably 15 years old and seems to still work fine. It's not fluid filled and is marked "made in Taiwan". I've seen regular 60 psi gauges on Epay for 4.50 and fluid filled versions of the same gauges at the same seller for 12.50. Since they'll be easy to replace, I may just go with regular and buy a couple of extras or I may buy the fluid filled.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akpsdvan View Post
    So you are going to have a really big brass TEE? in front of the pressure tank? ceiling to floor and about 4' off the floor go to the treatment system? and a plug on the other side of the pressure tank TEE? that will work..
    I'm not sure what the problem is. Water can't flow through the pressure tank. The tank has to be on a branch of the main line coming in so I think it has to be on a tee. I suspect that typically, the main line goes straight through the tee with the pressure tank on the branch. I could change it to do that but I would then need to add an elbow below the tee to turn the flow to the horizontal area required for the filters and softener. According to the numbers on the site linked to above, that would be slightly worse than having the main flow come out the branch of the tee like it does now.

    If the problem is that the pressure tank is fighting the weight of the water in the lines above it, I really don't have the option to move all of this out of the basement to a higher level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akpsdvan View Post
    3/4 meter should work, for what you are looking at doing , should do it,,, normally when I am putting a meter in for turning on a chem pump I size down just a little on the meter.. making sure that the meter sees the water... one of the things that I learned from a man that does meters, pumps , chem feed for 35 years.. and that is all that he does.
    According to the specs for the meter, the accuracy of the 3/4x3/4 version starts to drop below 1/2 gpm. For the 5/8x3/4 version, it starts to drop below 1/4 gpm so the smaller meter is more accurate on lower flows. I'm not sure how often we use flows that low though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akpsdvan View Post
    Good to hear that you have already had a run at the cleaning and fluxing the copper,,, that will come in handy and what a challenge it is if there is water in the line that you are working on ...
    What the diagram doesn't show is that the ball valves on each end have compression fittings rather than sweat so that the entire assembly can be installed and removed with wrenches. Other than desoldering a tee on the input line and soldering a coupler on the output line, everything can be done on a workbench. I will be careful to make sure the lines are empty and as dry as possible when using the torch.
    If it sounds like I know what I'm doing, I haven't written clearly enough.

  10. #25
    In the Trades Akpsdvan's Avatar
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    My my,, the list today..

    The main reason that I talk about replacing them, when there is sand or lots of iron in the water those two items have habit of laying down in the slot that the gate goes into to stop the water, thus making one close, open, close, open, close til the water finally stops.

    Re-using parts when one can is a good idea, but keep in mind that if part of a pipe or fitting gets way to hot, it might not hold right when you get it back together. The long elbows are more for larger places when every psi counts, not that it does not count in a house like yours it does, but not to the same level as a Bed and Breakfast or lodge...

    If there is only the single line acting as supply and return off the pressure tank there is nothing wrong with that, seen that a lot... I just call that the really big Tee....

    Pressure gauges around here have a short life, but the water is the killer, if yours is that old and still working great,,, then stay with what is working.

    Low flow... if there is an ice maker or cold water dispenser on the Referig... or an RO under the sink, then no biggie.. the meter will do what you are looking for it to do.. often times today I am working with people that have some things that only use about .25-.50gpm so I have to take that into account when doing the equipment..

    I was putting things on the table to be thought of, It is the way I like to work, making sure that different ideas are out there. Some ideas go some place, others go no where and others change into other ideas..

    The Universe is my box.... not just the planet..

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