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Thread: Softener system for new home - ATTN GARY

  1. #121
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob999 View Post
    I think of all the resin (4 cubic foot as compared to 2 cubid foot) as being "used" because it is being "used" to get more salt salt efficiency and because it is being used to achieve lower leakage. The way I think about it the fact that with 4 cubic foot of resin that the unit is not set up to regenerate 120,000 grains at each regeneration is just a result of "using" the 4 cubic foot to achieve greater salt efficiency.
    The cuft volume of resin required is based on the constant SFR gpm of the softener that is needed to cover the peak demand flow rate gpm of the water system the softener is installed on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob999 View Post
    I agree that hardness typically varies. A system should be designed for the maximum hardnes seen to achieve consistently soft water. If the system is not so designed then the customer will almost certainly deplete the resin at some point and need to do the back to back max salt dose regenerations. But I see this as applying whether there is 2 cubic foot of resin or 4 cubic foot of resin.
    Correct.

    p.s. Bob he is not going to get it no matter how much it is explained to him.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
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    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  2. #122
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    I fear that at this point there is little if any flesh left on the poor horse.

  3. #123
    DIY Senior Member Bob999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    Correct.

    p.s. Bob he is not going to get it no matter how much it is explained to him.
    Gary, I guess I should be grateful that you aren't bashing my posts at this point but I really don't need you to tell me I am correct--and I don't think other readers need it either!

    And I find your continuing need to bash posters, as you have done in the quote above, very inappropriate!
    Last edited by Bob999; 02-10-2010 at 11:48 AM.

  4. #124
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob999 View Post
    Gary, I guess I should be grateful that you aren't bashing my posts at this point but I really don't need you to tell me I am correct--and I don't think other readers need it either!
    I disagree with you Bob. I know that the members reading this want accurate information much more than an opinion because many of them are looking at spending hundreds of dollars or more to solve their water quality or equipment problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob999 View Post
    And I find your continuing need to bash posters, as you have done in the quote above, very inappropriate!
    I think my comment is appropriate, especially for others reading this because I see that Skip doesn't believe you either; which is what I told you he would do. He's been doing this for about a year here under various names mostly just to disagree with me and now you start telling him the same as I have and he still doesn't get it. Posters need to see that so I drew attention to it.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  5. #125

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    I disagree with you Bob. I know that the members reading this want accurate information much more than an opinion because many of them are looking at spending hundreds of dollars or more to solve their water quality or equipment problems.


    I think my comment is appropriate, especially for others reading this because I see that Skip doesn't believe you either; which is what I told you he would do. He's been doing this for about a year here under various names mostly just to disagree with me and now you start telling him the same as I have and he still doesn't get it. Posters need to see that so I drew attention to it.
    Gary, how can you possible say what I believe? I just simply disagree with how you size your units. You use standards set for industrial use IMO. I have asked you serveral times why millions of customers use 1 cf units and don't complain about hardness bleed through. You have never answered that question in a way that makes sense or at all. The amount of bleed through is so minute you can not meassure it with a standard test kit. And that is what most service tech's use. I am in the field 6 days a week. I see a lot. I contract for several Big Box stores to service or install their units and I sell my own. IMO, you make it such a big deal only to sell more units.

  6. #126
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skip Wolverton View Post
    Gary, how can you possible say what I believe?
    Becasue you have posted what you believe. As you do again below.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skip Wolverton View Post
    I just simply disagree with how you size your units. You use standards set for industrial use IMO. I have asked you serveral times why millions of customers use 1 cf units and don't complain about hardness bleed through. You have never answered that question in a way that makes sense or at all.
    I have told you this and Bob has told you, resin usually has a SFR stated as 1-5 gpm per cuft. Those figures are for high commercial and industrial applications but the reason for them applies to residential also. You pay no attention to them. Or us and I doubt you are asking your service customers if they believe that their softener has consistently given them soft water over the years when it was working. I serviced softeners for 18 yrs and I didn't ask those customers or test to see if the water was hard because they told me it was hard when they called for service.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skip Wolverton View Post
    The amount of bleed through is so minute you can not meassure it with a standard test kit. And that is what most service tech's use. I am in the field 6 days a week. I see a lot. I contract for several Big Box stores to service or install their units and I sell my own. IMO, you make it such a big deal only to sell more units.
    Many people with a softener can feel 1-2 gpg of hardness, and they accept it. And you can test for as little as 1 gpm with any Hach or other gpg type test kit.

    So you think I sell more softeners because I oversize them... LOL You must think guys brag about the size of their softener. I've never heard of that.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  7. #127

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    Becasue you have posted what you believe. As you do again below.


    I have told you this and Bob has told you, resin usually has a SFR stated as 1-5 gpm per cuft. Those figures are for high commercial and industrial applications but the reason for them applies to residential also. You pay no attention to them. Or us and I doubt you are asking your service customers if they believe that their softener has consistently given them soft water over the years when it was working. I serviced softeners for 18 yrs and I didn't ask those customers or test to see if the water was hard because they told me it was hard when they called for service.

    Many people with a softener can feel 1-2 gpg of hardness, and they accept it. And you can test for as little as 1 gpm with any Hach or other gpg type test kit.

    So you think I sell more softeners because I oversize them... LOL You must think guys brag about the size of their softener. I've never heard of that.
    I test water DAILY. Do you understand DAILY? I don't see it. Again I don't see it. Do you understand that. I was taught the first thing you do is test water EVERYTIME you go to a customers house. That means I test if I deliver salt. I go through a 5B test kit about every 2-3 months. I just don't see the bleed through you talk about. So if I don't see it, and I test a lot of water in a week, then why the hell should I listen to you? Again, tell us why people don't complain to me about hard water bleed through.

  8. #128
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    Can't we all just get along and be friends

  9. #129
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skip Wolverton View Post
    I test water DAILY. Do you understand DAILY? I don't see it. Again I don't see it. Do you understand that. I was taught the first thing you do is test water EVERYTIME you go to a customers house. That means I test if I deliver salt. I go through a 5B test kit about every 2-3 months. I just don't see the bleed through you talk about. So if I don't see it, and I test a lot of water in a week, then why the hell should I listen to you? Again, tell us why people don't complain to me about hard water bleed through.
    So you are called for a service call and you don't find hard water when you test the softened water as soon as you get to the house....

    Then what were you called out to the house for?

    If it was because the softener hasn't been working or working right, and it is undersized like many are, and you show up 1-2 days or more after the call, the softener has probably regenerated since the phone call. So why are you testing the water as soon as you get there?

    What is that test supposed to tell you anyway? Is it supposed to tell you if the person is lying to get the big box store etc. out of a warranty claim?

    So since you don't test and find hard water, do you just bill the person for the service call and leave?

    Or do you eventually find something wrong with the softener and fix it? Or not fix it and try to sell them a new softener like I hear is being done by service people?

    Here's what you should be asking yourself INSTEAD OF ME, why didn't you find hard water IF there was something wrong with the softener? Or, why does the customer think he's getting hard water when you didn't find their water hard when you showed up and tested it?

    And why didn't whatever you found wrong and then fixed cause you to find hard water????

    Or, are you telling the person there's nothing wrong with their softener because you didn't get hard water in your test and then billing for the service call and leaving?

    Also, what is a 5B test kit, a pack of 50 dip strips?
    Last edited by Gary Slusser; 02-12-2010 at 08:20 AM.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  10. #130

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    So you are called for a service call and you don't find hard water when you test the softened water as soon as you get to the house....

    Then what were you called out to the house for?

    If it was because the softener hasn't been working or working right, and it is undersized like many are, and you show up 1-2 days or more after the call, the softener has probably regenerated since the phone call. So why are you testing the water as soon as you get there?

    What is that test supposed to tell you anyway? Is it supposed to tell you if the person is lying to get the big box store etc. out of a warranty claim?

    So since you don't test and find hard water, do you just bill the person for the service call and leave?

    Or do you eventually find something wrong with the softener and fix it? Or not fix it and try to sell them a new softener like I hear is being done by service people?

    Here's what you should be asking yourself INSTEAD OF ME, why didn't you find hard water IF there was something wrong with the softener? Or, why does the customer think he's getting hard water when you didn't find their water hard when you showed up and tested it?

    And why didn't whatever you found wrong and then fixed cause you to find hard water????

    Or, are you telling the person there's nothing wrong with their softener because you didn't get hard water in your test and then billing for the service call and leaving?

    Also, what is a 5B test kit, a pack of 50 dip strips?
    I can tell by your statements that you didn't get into the filed much. How about services calls to repair an RO or just change the filters? How about a service call for a leak? How about a service to explain a unit to a customer that just moved in a has no idea how it works? All of these happen often. If it's a c
    service call because the unit is not working, of coarse it's going to be hard water. Come on Gary, think. And the statement about what is a 5B test kit tells me a lot about you if you don't know what one is. I'm done with this conversation.

  11. #131
    In the Trades Akpsdvan's Avatar
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    Pick me ,,,, Pick me.... I know this,,,,

    5B is the hardness test kit from HACH.... there is a bottle with powder a bottle with titrant solution .... been around for at least 20 years that I know of.

    It is one of the basic items for any service tech that goes into the field and wishes to get an understanding of what the unit is doing or not doing.

  12. #132
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skip Wolverton View Post
    I can tell by your statements that you didn't get into the filed much. How about services calls to repair an RO or just change the filters? How about a service call for a leak? How about a service to explain a unit to a customer that just moved in a has no idea how it works? All of these happen often. If it's a c
    service call because the unit is not working, of coarse it's going to be hard water. Come on Gary, think. And the statement about what is a 5B test kit tells me a lot about you if you don't know what one is. I'm done with this conversation.
    "Of course it's going to be hard". Yet you previously said you have never seen it.

    I see you use the same drop tritrant type Hack test kit that I did for 20+ years as a local dealer doing sales and service after a year with a large east coast company.

    But I don't know a 5B test kit because I never bought just a hardness test kit.

    I always bought replacement chemicals for mine that came with my large multiple test kit including copper, nitrates, nitrites, sulfates, chlorides, TDS, pH, iron, manganese, H2S etc. etc.. And I bought an incubator and did a Coliform bacteria test for well water which was 99% of all my business. And you think I didn't do service!

    Try this;
    It's the same that Bob999 posted text from in another thread about this same subject here last month. Where you didn't learn anything then or since but still... there's always a chance of a miracle. It's from a Purolite Regional Manager. Purolite is a large resin manufacturer.

    RE: Peak flow & continuous flow through softener acc. to Fleck: Gary Schreiber CWS VI: 12/24/2009 10:58:41 AMThere is a definite limit to how fast you can flow water through ion exchange resin. Flowing too fast will result in leakage of ions. You can exceed the resin manufacturers specifications but the quality of the water produced will not be as good. For softening if you flow too fast that will result in higher hardness leakage. Many equipment manufacturers do have high flow rates showing in their specifications for softeners. For residential applications that may not be a problem because most home owners are happy of the hardness of their water is less than 1.5 grains per gallon. That can usually be achieved even when flowing faster than twice the resin specification. However if you follow Jim Wark's recommendations above you will never go wrong. (Gary Slusser comment here; if you use the SFR/cuft of the resin manufacturer, you'll be buying a much larger softener than needed and costing yourrself a large amount of money than you needed to spend, and run a serious risk of channelization.

    For commercial/industrial applications it is always best to match the end user's flow rate to the resin manufacturer's flow rate. Most commercial/industrial end user's are sensitive to hardness leakage.
    ************
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  13. #133
    Water system engineer riverside67's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob999 View Post
    Two 100 gallon tank heaters could be sufficient depending on the temperature setting for the storage--it clearly would not be adequate at 120F but with higher storage temperatures could meet your requirements. If you go that route I believe that you should include mixing valves to to reduce the temperature of the supplied water.
    Are mixing valves available in 1.25" sizes? These 100 gal tanks have 1.25" inlet/outlets.

    Thanks!

  14. #134
    In the Trades Wally Hays's Avatar
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    Sparco, Honeywell and Leonard all make 1.25 tempering valves
    Perception is 3/4 of reality

  15. #135
    Water system engineer riverside67's Avatar
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    If I had two 75 or 100 gallon tanks would each one require a mixing valve? Would it make any difference if they were plumbed in series or parallel?

    Thanks!

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