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Thread: Softener system for new home - ATTN GARY

  1. #106
    DIY Senior Member Bob999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skip Wolverton View Post
    I agree with what you just said. Now if you have 4 cf of resin and only use 2 cf (40,000) there will not be any bleed through because of the extra resin. But you don't regen ALL the resin (80,000) so the extra 2 cf will be used up over time. Once that capacity is used up, what's to stop the bleed though? And what happen when the customer lets the unit run out of salt. Do they regn using 60 lbs salt. I think not. They will regen using the salt setting so only 40,000 are regened and the bleed though potentual is still there. I do agree that a softener might have a bleed through, but, it is so low, my test kit won't meassure it. This is way I said a 4 cf unit was over sized.
    You raise interesting questions. I can only tell you how I think about it--and not with documentation to support that my thinking is correct.

    I think that when you start with a fully regenerated resin bed--I will use a 1 cubic foot resin bed as an example and assume that a fully regenerated bed is 30,000 grains--then if only half of the capacity is used before regeneration, (15,000 grains) and the appropriate salt dose is used to regenerate 15,000 grains (about 4 lbs) it seems that a full 30,000 grains bed is again available. I can't really explain why this seems to be what happens and in some ways it appears to be counter intuitive because I think it is well understood and accepted that if that same 1 cubic foot of resin was fully exhaused that it would take 15 lbs of salt to fully regenerate it.

    If the bed does become fully depleted--for what ever reason--it is necessary to recharge the bed with the maximum salt dose--15 lbs per cubic foot. As you know Gary Slusser recommends that the maximum dose be applied twice in succession if the bed is fully depleted and in my experience that works very well in reestablishing a fully charged bed that can then be successfully recharged with low salt doses after partial exhaustion.
    Last edited by Bob999; 02-08-2010 at 03:51 PM. Reason: spelling

  2. #107
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob999 View Post
    I agree with what Akpsdvan has posted. I just want to add that if you go with a valve head larger than 1" you need to ensure that your supplier uses a comparable sized distribution tube and that the installation is done with a comparably sized bypass.

    As I understand it you are still designing the system for a max flow of 25 gpm and if you go with a 1" softener head the pressure loss through the head alone at a flow of 25 gpm--not counting the distribution tube, the distributor, the resin, and the bypass piping or all the other plumbing before your shower heads--will be nearly 15 psi (The specifications for the Clack WS1 head alone is 15 psi pressure drop at 27 gallons per minute).
    And here I always thought that pressure loss depended on what pressure you were running the system at. Do you guys that are suggesting larger control valves think the system pressure has anything to do with this?
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  3. #108
    In the Trades Akpsdvan's Avatar
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    Do we need to go back to class on all the items that can and do cause pressure drops and what drops at what pressure? Head loss at 20psi and head loss at 60 psi?

  4. #109
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akpsdvan View Post
    Do we need to go back to class on all the items that can and do cause pressure drops and what drops at what pressure? Head loss at 20psi and head loss at 60 psi?
    I've always noticed that the higher the pressure, the higher the pressure loss of fittings, valves, tubing etc.. I was wondering if you guys had any idea about that and the pressure loss figures on a control valve spec sheet.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  5. #110
    DIY Senior Member Bob999's Avatar
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    Pressure loss is a function of flow. I think this is why the specs for softener heads are for pressure loss at a specified flow--the industry standard is to list the flow at which a 15 psi pressure drop occurs. Of course you need pressure differential to get flow so there is no pressure loss from flow if there is no pressure and as the input pressure to a system is increased the potential for greater flow also increases.

    So I think Gary's observation of "the higher the pressure, the higher the pressure loss of fittings, valves, tubing etc" is fully consistent--higher pressure in a given system will result in higher flows when, for example, a faucet is opened. It is also consistent with the fact that pressure drop in the system is a function of flow--the higher the flow in any given system the higher the pressure drop.
    Last edited by Bob999; 02-09-2010 at 04:49 AM. Reason: add information

  6. #111
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    What we are really talking about is friction loss. PSI is a function of the pump delivering water to the system. Volume is dependent on pipe size, head pressure and friction loss. The fourmula is F=0.282 (110/c) 1.85 [(q)1.85/(d)4.8655]
    where f = friction head in feet of liquid per 100' of pipe ( fittings, valves, equipment have an equivilant number assigned)
    d = inside pipe diameter
    q = Fluid flow in gpm
    c = Surface roughness constant (from published data)

  7. #112
    Water system engineer riverside67's Avatar
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    Psi loss is a function of velocity (mentioned as "flow" here). As velocity increases, friction increases (surface roughness), i.e. psi loss increases. If the static pressure to a system increases and the ID of the piping serving the system is not increased then the velocity (flow) increases and higher psi loss can result (although the resultant psi at the end of the line will still be higher after the psi losses are removed).

    When pipe size is increased (larger ID) then the velocity is reduced at any given pressure, i.e. less psi loss. This is the whole reason why I'm leaning towards the 1.25" valve, larger ID, i.e. less psi loss at either normal or full bore flow at my given pressures. Plus I plan to run a 1.25" trunk line from the softener to the water heaters and then to the bathrooms.

    I anticipate having ~ 65 psi at the home and would like more than 50 psi in the showers, especially considering the multiple shower head flow capability they will have.

  8. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob999 View Post
    You raise interesting questions. I can only tell you how I think about it--and not with documentation to support that my thinking is correct.

    I think that when you start with a fully regenerated resin bed--I will use a 1 cubic foot resin bed as an example and assume that a fully regenerated bed is 30,000 grains--then if only half of the capacity is used before regeneration, (15,000 grains) and the appropriate salt dose is used to regenerate 15,000 grains (about 4 lbs) it seems that a full 30,000 grains bed is again available. I can't really explain why this seems to be what happens and in some ways it appears to be counter intuitive because I think it is well understood and accepted that if that same 1 cubic foot of resin was fully exhaused that it would take 15 lbs of salt to fully regenerate it.

    If the bed does become fully depleted--for what ever reason--it is necessary to recharge the bed with the maximum salt dose--15 lbs per cubic foot. As you know Gary Slusser recommends that the maximum dose be applied twice in succession if the bed is fully depleted and in my experience that works very well in reestablishing a fully charged bed that can then be successfully recharged with low salt doses after partial exhaustion.
    That is correct. When the resin has reached the exhaustion point, the entire bed needs to be regenerated. And as Gary has stated, do a back to back regen. That means using 4 cf has the potential bleed though the same as a 2 cf unit. So why use the extra 2 cf? Now you are moving 20 gpm through 2 cf and the manufacture states 6 gpm/cf. I will bet anyone you will not be able the measure the bleed through using a field test kit. It ios so small, it's not worth troubling over. I've been trying to teach Gary this for a long time.

  9. #114
    DIY Senior Member Bob999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skip Wolverton View Post
    That means using 4 cf has the potential bleed though the same as a 2 cf unit. So why use the extra 2 cf?
    I don't understand how you get to the statement quoted above. Can you set it out step by step?

  10. #115
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by riverside67 View Post
    Psi loss is a function of velocity (mentioned as "flow" here). As velocity increases, friction increases (surface roughness), i.e. psi loss increases. If the static pressure to a system increases and the ID of the piping serving the system is not increased then the velocity (flow) increases and higher psi loss can result (although the resultant psi at the end of the line will still be higher after the psi losses are removed).

    When pipe size is increased (larger ID) then the velocity is reduced at any given pressure, i.e. less psi loss. This is the whole reason why I'm leaning towards the 1.25" valve, larger ID, i.e. less psi loss at either normal or full bore flow at my given pressures. Plus I plan to run a 1.25" trunk line from the softener to the water heaters and then to the bathrooms.
    Agreed. Any idea of how much pressure loss with 65 psi through say 10" of 1" and then into 14"-16" for 65" and then into 6' of 1"?

    Quote Originally Posted by riverside67 View Post
    I anticipate having ~ 65 psi at the home and would like more than 50 psi in the showers, especially considering the multiple shower head flow capability they will have.
    If you want 65 psi then your pressure switch would be set at 55/75. And if you want constant 65, you need a CSV.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  11. #116
    Water system engineer riverside67's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    Agreed. Any idea of how much pressure loss with 65 psi through say 10" of 1" and then into 14"-16" for 65" and then into 6' of 1"?

    If you want 65 psi then your pressure switch would be set at 55/75. And if you want constant 65, you need a CSV.
    Again, psi loss is a function of velocity (or flow). You need to give me a desired flow through those lengths of pipe in order to calculate the losses.

    My switch is set at 85-105 and yes I already have a 2" csv. The setting is so high due to the elevation difference between the well and the house pad (~ 30 psi loss). At flows above 5 gpm the csv is set at 95...i.e. ~ 65 psi at the home.

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    [QUOTE=Gary Slusser;248272]Agreed. Any idea of how much pressure loss with 65 psi through say 10" of 1" and then into 14"-16" for 65" and then into 6' of 1"?


    For 1" copper with a 5 ft/sec. velocity the charts show a 10 psi drop of 10 lbs/psi @ 20 gpm for 100' of pipe so.. that works out to 1/10lb/psi for 1' of pipe.

  13. #118
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by riverside67 View Post
    Again, psi loss is a function of velocity (or flow). You need to give me a desired flow through those lengths of pipe in order to calculate the losses.
    Yes I know. I was asking you because you have stated the flow as 20-22 gpm.

    And the figures I mentioned are very close to the distance and internal ID of a 3-4 cuft softener with regular mesh resin including a gravel underbed and a Clack WS-1 (1") control valve, including the factory bypass valve with separate (1") in/outlet ball valves.

    Quote Originally Posted by riverside67 View Post
    My switch is set at 85-105 and yes I already have a 2" csv. The setting is so high due to the elevation difference between the well and the house pad (~ 30 psi loss). At flows above 5 gpm the csv is set at 95...i.e. ~ 65 psi at the home.
    IMO you are running too much pressure in the house and will probably create water hammer. For 2 people 50 psi is more than sufficient. Are you sure you aren't going to be exceeding the recommended max velocity of 5-8 ft/sec for the pipe you're using?
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  14. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob999 View Post
    I don't understand how you get to the statement quoted above. Can you set it out step by step?
    Gary said that I thought he would be using all 4 cf of resin. He is not. So the extra resin will catch the bleed through which means it will be used up and not regened. Once all the resin is used up, hardness bleed through may happen. The same goes for the 2 cf unit. Hardness is never a constant correct? So if the hardness were to raise more capacity is used. The same if the unit ran out of salt. IMO a 2 cf unit would be good for this application. Putting in a 4 cf unit is just overkill.

  15. #120
    DIY Senior Member Bob999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skip Wolverton View Post
    Gary said that I thought he would be using all 4 cf of resin. He is not. So the extra resin will catch the bleed through which means it will be used up and not regened. Once all the resin is used up, hardness bleed through may happen. The same goes for the 2 cf unit. Hardness is never a constant correct? So if the hardness were to raise more capacity is used. The same if the unit ran out of salt. IMO a 2 cf unit would be good for this application. Putting in a 4 cf unit is just overkill.
    I think of all the resin (4 cubic foot as compared to 2 cubid foot) as being "used" because it is being "used" to get more salt salt efficiency and because it is being used to achieve lower leakage. The way I think about it the fact that with 4 cubic foot of resin that the unit is not set up to regenerate 120,000 grains at each regeneration is just a result of "using" the 4 cubic foot to achieve greater salt efficiency.

    I agree that hardness typically varies. A system should be designed for the maximum hardnes seen to achieve consistently soft water. If the system is not so designed then the customer will almost certainly deplete the resin at some point and need to do the back to back max salt dose regenerations. But I see this as applying whether there is 2 cubic foot of resin or 4 cubic foot of resin.

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