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Thread: Softener system for new home - ATTN GARY

  1. #91
    DIY Senior Member Bob999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    I have explained leakage to thousands of prospective customers, it's not difficult and the WQA says the amount of acceptable hardness (leakage) in softened water is 1 gpg or less. I say 0 gpg is what everyone should have and expect.
    There have been previous discussions about leakage. Let me say again that I understand that zero grains per gallon of hardness means zero parts per million of hardness. With that understanding I think it is misleading at best, and dishonest at worst, to describe a typical residential softener as delivering "0 gpg". It just doesn't happen with softeners regenerated with a few lbs of salt per cubic foot and used with flow rates of up to 9 gallons per cubic foot of resin.

    I think I understand from your previous posting on this matter that you use a fairly crude hardness test--one that is only calibrated in units of one or more grains per gallon and that what you really mean when you say "0 gpg" is that with the hardness test you use that the test doesn't show 1 or more gpg.

  2. #92
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob999 View Post
    Gary, there you go again. Bashing me because of unfounded assumptions you make about my background, experience and knowledge base. However, I acknowledge that I do rely on published technical data as one of the sources of my information--don't you?
    Bashing you? If you have field experience, state what it is and realize that so far without stating it you are lying by omission. On the other hand I lay my experience out for all to see and all you seem to do is pick it apart because it doesn't match your understanding of things solely based on spec sheets. I'm replying to what you have said has been based on only spec sheets. Spec sheets don't tell the whole story and in your case you are missing something on some of those spec sheets and I am not going to tell you what it is until you mention it, and then maybe not then anyway because I'm thinking you will pick apart my explanation of that like you did with your resin spec sheet SFR argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob999 View Post
    I think it is telling that a salesman who sells from a no fixed address mobile home continually questions and berates the knowledge, experience and background of other posters. So be it. I am content to let the reader read what I post and decide for himself.
    So again you are claiming I don't know what I'm doing because I live in and travel around the country in a motor home!! While your knowledge of softener sizing is based on what you read on spec sheets...

    Anyway, what is your experience and background in sizing softeners and I'll include troubleshooting them for someone other than yourself; if you've ever actually done that. Tell us Bob, and if you don't, I say you are only using the spec sheets that you have mentioned reading a few days ago.

    Look how few posts of yours are in reply to anyone with problems and compare them to your posts that in essence say I'm wrong about something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob999 View Post
    And yes I have no doubt that there are unscrupulous dealers who would sell a 1.25" valve with a 1" distributor tube to an unsuspecting customer to make a little more profit. I hope you are not one of them.
    You should have your answer about my scruples Bob because our discussion has me saying that Riverside doesn't need the larger valve.

    I sold a WS-1 to a master plumber for a customer of his in a 135 seat steakhouse and then after he ordered it he called to apologize to me for saying I was wrong (just like you are here) and wanted to change from the WS-1.25" to the 1" two days after it had already shipped. He insisted as you are here that the 1" wouldn't deliver the gpm he needed. That was until he got his plumbing sizing books out and looked up what I told him.

    IMO Bob, that is some of my actual and factual field experience and the unit is a year old next month. The only problem with it was someone left it run out of salt last summer. It is a 6.5 cuft (16 or 18" tank IIRC) WS-1.25" unit on 1.5" main with city water, reduced by that master plumber of 35 yrs from 2" (Peter).
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

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    Well thanks for the info there but I don't make the rules, I enforce them. You and anybody else is more than welcome to file complaints and perhaps get things changed. I'm n ot in the change things business. I can not and will not overlook code violations based on how I feel about the code nor how I may feel about the situation or the individual. I don't make those distinctions because I do not want to take the liablility should something ever make it's way to court.

    I have to ammend this though. Just because there is a 2" main coming into a building does not mean you have to keep it 2" The code only sets a minimum size and that is 3/4". What you do have to do though is to figure out the total load on the building taking into account number and type of fixtures, the incomiong pressure and the total developed length and head pressure on the system. 2" may very well have been grossly oversized right from the get go. Further more the steak house itself may not have needed to run softened water to all of their fixtures.
    Last edited by Peter Griffin; 02-08-2010 at 11:23 AM.

  4. #94
    DIY Senior Member Bob999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    Look how few posts of yours are in reply to anyone with problems and compare them to your posts that in essence say I'm wrong about something.
    Sad but there is a bit of truth in your statement--I have posted a number of times putting forth information only to have you bash me and the information I posted and then I have been in the position of providing explanations. Two examples stand out--when I posted that chlorine treatment is much less costly when done with a solution injector and bleach rather than using an inline pellet feeder and when I noted that zero grains per gallon hardness is not achieved in typical residental installations. In both cases you went on and on bashing me and posting diversionary information. However, in the end, I think the record shows that the information I posted was correct.

  5. #95
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob999 View Post
    There have been previous discussions about leakage. Let me say again that I understand that zero grains per gallon of hardness means zero parts per million of hardness. With that understanding I think it is misleading at best, and dishonest at worst, to describe a typical residential softener as delivering "0 gpg". It just doesn't happen with softeners regenerated with a few lbs of salt per cubic foot and used with flow rates of up to 9 gallons per cubic foot of resin.
    Emphasis above is mine. And I'm going to correct you again by simply stating that in residential softening the test used is grains per gallon, not ppm or mg/l. And if a lab etc. does it in ppm or mg/l it is converted to gpg. Call any dealer or resin manufacturer and learn the error of your way Bob.

    Bottom line Bob, all softeners are programmed to a certain K of capacity right?

    Is that K in ppm or mg/l or is it in GPG (grains per gallon)? It is GPG, not mg/l or ppm Bob.

    Yes there can be X ppm or mg/l (same measurement) in the softened water and the residential owner will never notice it or have it cause problems for him.

    The spec sheet 1-5 ppm or mg/l per cuft is for industrial/commercial folks where over a certain ppm level, the hardness will cause them problems; like pharmaceutical, chemical, electronics and plating manufacturers as a small example Bob.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob999 View Post
    I think I understand from your previous posting on this matter that you use a fairly crude hardness test--one that is only calibrated in units of one or more grains per gallon and that what you really mean when you say "0 gpg" is that with the hardness test you use that the test doesn't show 1 or more gpg.
    Well then you're wrong again Bob and I've explained it to you 3-4 times now but here you are again.

    The test kit I send all softener customers (yes my supplier that ships the softener includes it, I personally do not ship anything from my no fixed address motor home....it's called drop shipping Bob) gives a hard test result if there is one or more gpg of hardness in their softened water because all softeners are set up in GPG Bob, not ppm or mg/l. And the salt efficiency is set based on X K of capacity per lb of salt used and per cuft of resin Bob.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  6. #96
    DIY Senior Member Bob999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    And I'm going to correct you again by simply stating that in residential softening the test used is grains per gallon, not ppm or mg/l. And if a lab etc. does it in ppm or mg/l it is converted to gpg.
    I disagree. In support of my position I point to the numerous posts on this website where hardness is expressed in PPM--these are posted by homeowners and, I am assuming, are for residential purposes.

    Grains per gallon is simply a scale for expressing hardness, as is ppm. There is a very simple equivalency between the two scales. 17.1 ppm of hardness equals 1 grain per gallon per hardness.

    So I believe that a correct statement is that both ppm and gpg are used in measuring residential hardness.

    I do agree with your statement that the capacity of residential softeners is typically expressed in grains per gallon.

    I note that you have posted nothing to indicate that my statement that 0 gpg is equal to 0 ppm is not correct.

    As to your statement about spec sheets:

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    The spec sheet 1-5 ppm or mg/l per cuft is for industrial/commercial folks where over a certain ppm level, the hardness will cause them problems; like pharmaceutical, chemical, electronics and plating manufacturers as a small example Bob.
    I believe that spec sheets are just that--specifications. They apply to industrial applications and they apply to residential applications.

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    I think we have reached the point of impass.
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  8. #98
    In the Trades Akpsdvan's Avatar
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    Wounder if I could still find that bomb shelter that we built as kids back in the 60's....

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    Water system engineer riverside67's Avatar
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    OK...so after all that. I just want to make sure that I experience the LEAST amount of pressure loss possible when under normal or full bore scenarios through the softener.

    If the 1.25" will impart LESS psi loss, then I'll go with that...I mean..how much more can it be as compared to the 1" ?
    If the 1.25" will impart the SAME psi loss as the 1" then it makes no sense to buy the 1.25"...

  10. #100
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Griffin View Post
    Well thanks for the info there but I don't make the rules, I enforce them. You and anybody else is more than welcome to file complaints and perhaps get things changed. I'm n ot in the change things business. I can not and will not overlook code violations based on how I feel about the code nor how I may feel about the situation or the individual. I don't make those distinctions because I do not want to take the liablility should something ever make it's way to court.

    I have to ammend this though. Just because there is a 2" main coming into a building does not mean you have to keep it 2" The code only sets a minimum size and that is 3/4". What you do have to do though is to figure out the total load on the building taking into account number and type of fixtures, the incomiong pressure and the total developed length and head pressure on the system. 2" may very well have been grossly oversized right from the get go. Further more the steak house itself may not have needed to run softened water to all of their fixtures.
    The code also says ID reduction is fine as long as it does not reduce pressure below the minimum, and your statment would apply in this case of 1.25" or 1.5" water line and a 1" control valve. That is because we don't have a peak demand for the total house yet, just the large shower or two showers.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  11. #101
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob999 View Post
    I disagree. In support of my position I point to the numerous posts on this website where hardness is expressed in PPM--these are posted by homeowners and, I am assuming, are for residential purposes.

    Grains per gallon is simply a scale for expressing hardness, as is ppm. There is a very simple equivalency between the two scales. 17.1 ppm of hardness equals 1 grain per gallon per hardness.
    And notice that in all those cases the ppm is converted to GPG, because all softeners are set up and sized based on GPG. That is a fact.

    Why we see ppm or mg/l in so many posts is due to labs and water companies stating hardness as ppm or mg/l. We also see numerous water companies and some labs saying that water with up to 150-180 ppm of hardness is soft; which it is not soft.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  12. #102
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    Well, yes and no. What the code says is that in all cases you need to estimate demand and size the main accordingly and that in no case can you go with anything smaller than 3/4" Minumum pressure allowable is 8lbs which is pretty low pressure. And yes, things have changed considerably since the first post listing 44gpm and now we are at 1/2 that so at that flow a 1" main and 1" valve head would most probably serve just fine. However, it would not hurt anything to go up one size and it does seem that cost is not really an issue here.

  13. #103
    In the Trades Akpsdvan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by riverside67 View Post
    OK...so after all that. I just want to make sure that I experience the LEAST amount of pressure loss possible when under normal or full bore scenarios through the softener.

    If the 1.25" will impart LESS psi loss, then I'll go with that...I mean..how much more can it be as compared to the 1" ?
    If the 1.25" will impart the SAME psi loss as the 1" then it makes no sense to buy the 1.25"...
    If your plumbing is 1.5 go with the 1.5, if it is 1.25 then the 1.25.... or if plumbing is 1.0 then go with it.

    First choice is to match valve control for water treatment to plumbing size...

  14. #104
    DIY Senior Member Bob999's Avatar
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    I agree with what Akpsdvan has posted. I just want to add that if you go with a valve head larger than 1" you need to ensure that your supplier uses a comparable sized distribution tube and that the installation is done with a comparably sized bypass.

    As I understand it you are still designing the system for a max flow of 25 gpm and if you go with a 1" softener head the pressure loss through the head alone at a flow of 25 gpm--not counting the distribution tube, the distributor, the resin, and the bypass piping or all the other plumbing before your shower heads--will be nearly 15 psi (The specifications for the Clack WS1 head alone is 15 psi pressure drop at 27 gallons per minute).

  15. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob999 View Post
    I think there are at least two reasons for using a larger amount of resin (4 cubic foot in the specific example) if the assumed maximum demand is 20-25 gpm with 20 gpg hardness. First a bit of background information which I expect you know but that other readers may not:

    1. The salt efficiency of a softener is higher when the maximum capacity of the resin is NOT used. If one cubic foot of resin is regenerated with 6 lbs of salt the salt efficiency is approximately 3400 grains per lb of salt and approximately 20,000 grains of capacity are available. If that same one foot of resin is regenerated with 15 lbs of salt the salt efficiency is about 2000 grains per lb of salt and about 30,000 grains of capacity are available. Resin manufacturers publish curves and regeneration rates for one cubic foot vary from 3 lbs per cubic foot to 15 lbs per cubic foot.

    2. The hardness leakage of a softener is lower when the flow per cubic foot of resin is lower. The higher the flow rate per cubic foot of resin the higher the hardness leakage.

    So, to answer your question as to why a larger softener might be used, it would be to achieve greater salt efficiency and/or lower hardness leakage. Depending on the cost of salt compared to the cost of resin and the larger tank required for the larger amount of resin and the customers discount rate it may or may not make economic sense to go with a larger amount of resin to achieve greater salt efficiency. Hardness leakage in the typical residential application is a matter of personal preference and again it is really up to the customer to decide what hardness leakage is satisfactory. The problem from the sellors point of view, in my opinion, is that it is very difficult to help the customer make an informed decision about an acceptable level of hardness leakage--getting reliable data about what hardness leakage will actually be is difficult at best and explaining or demonstrating the impact of hardness leakage is also problematic.
    I agree with what you just said. Now if you have 4 cf of resin and only use 2 cf (40,000) there will not be any bleed through because of the extra resin. But you don't regen ALL the resin (80,000) so the extra 2 cf will be used up over time. Once that capacity is used up, what's to stop the bleed though? And what happen when the customer lets the unit run out of salt. Do they regn using 60 lbs salt. I think not. They will regen using the salt setting so only 40,000 are regened and the bleed though potentual is still there. I do agree that a softener might have a bleed through, but, it is so low, my test kit won't meassure it. This is way I said a 4 cf unit was over sized.

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