Softener system for new home - ATTN GARY

[Gary Slusser]

I have no doubt that you sell water softeners. I have never questioned that. Selling water softeners from your no fixed address mobile home in wherever certainly isn't hands on experience in my book.

What I do question is your understanding that it is necessary to have both a properly sized control head and a properly sized amount of resin/tank in order to get satisfactory service. Certainly your postings here don't indicate that you understand that basic tenent of equipment selection.

See now there's something else you're not understanding, I do have a fixed address but I was having a conversation with you and here you are attacking me and getting personal and way off topic.

I talk to 99% of all my customers before they buy and I go over sizing etc. with them for from an hour to an hour and a half. That's over the last 6 yrs and for 18-19 yrs before that I had a fixed address where I was a local dealer serving a 50-80 mile radius of the Milton/Lewisburg PA area. So I feel very comfy in putting my hands on experience up against anyone and especially someone with nothing but having read spec sheets that then doesn't understand everything they read.

I note you provide no facts or figures or explanations--you just keep putting forward the same old same old ****. About what I would expect from a salesman who doesn't know his merchandise as well as he thinks he does.

For 6 months you have been picking at things I say and because of that I have decided that I'm not going to teach you to size a softener or explain to you what you are missing. Well, other than your lack of experience and knowledge.

Here's what I replied to that you said previously: "It is my opinion, based on my understanding of your objective to provide flows of 20-25 gpm at a robust pressure, that a 1" valve would not be satisfactory". As I said previously, you are wrong.

[Bob999]

See now there's something else you're not understanding, I do have a fixed address but I was having a conversation with you and here you are attacking me and getting personal and way off topic.

I talk to 99% of all my customers before they buy and I go over sizing etc. with them for from an hour to an hour and a half. That's over the last 6 yrs and for 18-19 yrs before that I had a fixed address where I was a local dealer serving a 50-80 mile radius of the Milton/Lewisburg PA area. So I feel very comfy in putting my hands on experience up against anyone and especially someone with nothing but having read spec sheets that then doesn't understand everything they read.


For 6 months you have been picking at things I say and because of that I have decided that I'm not going to teach you to size a softener or explain to you what you are missing. Well, other than your lack of experience and knowledge.

Here's what I replied to that you said previously: "It is my opinion, based on my understanding of your objective to provide flows of 20-25 gpm at a robust pressure, that a 1" valve would not be satisfactory". As I said previously, you are wrong.

I just for record I never said you have no fixed address--I said you sell from a no fixed address mobile home. I note that you do not deny that my post is true. Your response on this, like so many others, is an attempt to distort the truth or to divert the reader from the truth.

I see no reason to continue a discussion with a salesman who apparently doesn't know important information about the application of the equipment he sells and who continually misrepresents what I have posted. I believe the primary purpose of this board is to share experience and help people with problems. I will continue to do that and ignore any further attacks and bashing from individuals who have demonstrated they aren't worthy of response.

[Peter Griffin]

[QUOTE=Gary Slusser;247775]They also list a few other things.

Yes, they do. Pages and pages of other things. but every time they talk about valve flow they talk about a 15 lb. pressure drop through all of their valve heads.


As I've already said, the code calls for no reduction of the ID for the plumbing connections; not the control valve ID or the distributor tube. Possibly you need to look that up.

Being a plumbing inspector I would say you are talking semantics and not the spirit of the code here. It's pretty obvious that if the inlet and outlets are 1" then the "connections" from a 1 1/2" supply would have to be reduced at the valve body. I would not pass it. No inspector, state or local would pass it in this area.

You also state that you have sold softeners to folks with high demand showers etc and they have never complained about hardness leakage. Probably that is true, but on the other hand, I doubt they would notice any leakage in a shower even if it was occurring.

[Bob999]

You also state that you have sold softeners to folks with high demand showers etc and they have never complained about hardness leakage. Probably that is true, but on the other hand, I doubt they would notice any leakage in a shower even if it was occurring.

Perhaps he sold a softener with a 1" valve for the high demand showers and as a result the user never got the high flow because of the pressure drop through the 1" valve head.

[Skip Wolverton]

Sorry AKpsdvan, I don't understand what this is about; "This has turned in to a poll cat marking contest...." If I guess, I come up with you being upset because you think I'm pickin' nits... I wasn't but at times I think others are.

Originally Posted by Skip Wolverton
A 4 cu ft unit on 20 GPG water. You would have to use 500 gallon per day in order to regen every 8 days. IMO, a 4 cu ft is way over sized.

That's because you don't understand how to size or set up a softener by adjusting the K of capacity you need by the salt dose in lbs based on the volume and type of resin you are using so you mistakenly think 120 or128K.

If your are not using the resin, then why sell it?

[riverside67]

Ok let's please get back to my question...

Will it hurt anything if I go with the 1.25" Clack valve?
Will I see less pressure loss with the 1.25" valve as compared to the 1"?

Thanks

[Peter Griffin]

No, it will not hurt anything and yes, you will see less pressure loss and you will be code compliant as well.

[Bob999]

Ok let's please get back to my question...

Will it hurt anything if I go with the 1.25" Clack valve?
Will I see less pressure loss with the 1.25" valve as compared to the 1"?

Thanks

No it will not cause any problem to go with a 1.25" Clack valve. The meter on the 1.25" valve has the same sensitivity as the 1" valve so it will sense the same flows--down to .25 gpm. You will definitely see less pressure loss with the 1.25" valve as compared to the 1" valve.

The only possible downside to the 1.25" valve is that it costs more--but it also has better performance.

[Bob999]

If your are not using the resin, then why sell it?

I think there are at least two reasons for using a larger amount of resin (4 cubic foot in the specific example) if the assumed maximum demand is 20-25 gpm with 20 gpg hardness. First a bit of background information which I expect you know but that other readers may not:

1. The salt efficiency of a softener is higher when the maximum capacity of the resin is NOT used. If one cubic foot of resin is regenerated with 6 lbs of salt the salt efficiency is approximately 3400 grains per lb of salt and approximately 20,000 grains of capacity are available. If that same one foot of resin is regenerated with 15 lbs of salt the salt efficiency is about 2000 grains per lb of salt and about 30,000 grains of capacity are available. Resin manufacturers publish curves and regeneration rates for one cubic foot vary from 3 lbs per cubic foot to 15 lbs per cubic foot.

2. The hardness leakage of a softener is lower when the flow per cubic foot of resin is lower. The higher the flow rate per cubic foot of resin the higher the hardness leakage.

So, to answer your question as to why a larger softener might be used, it would be to achieve greater salt efficiency and/or lower hardness leakage. Depending on the cost of salt compared to the cost of resin and the larger tank required for the larger amount of resin and the customers discount rate it may or may not make economic sense to go with a larger amount of resin to achieve greater salt efficiency. Hardness leakage in the typical residential application is a matter of personal preference and again it is really up to the customer to decide what hardness leakage is satisfactory. The problem from the sellors point of view, in my opinion, is that it is very difficult to help the customer make an informed decision about an acceptable level of hardness leakage--getting reliable data about what hardness leakage will actually be is difficult at best and explaining or demonstrating the impact of hardness leakage is also problematic.

[Gary Slusser]

Bob, selling from a no fixed address does not bother my customers. Actually, they all know where I am based on a pinpoint GPS address. And in reading what you said, I see you relate my traveling around the country as me having no hands on first hand experience and yet you know I have installed and serviced equipment as a local dealer for18-19 yrs as an independent local dealer.

But why does it bother you or have anything to do with what is being discussed?

BTW, it is an RV (recreation vehicle), a motor home, not a mobile home. I'm not seeing a distortion in what I said but I do see errors in what you are saying and talking about.

You mention the forum is to "share experience" Bob, yet you have consistently refused to say what your experience is. What is your experience Bob? Have you ever sold a softener to anyone? Installed one? How about service, have you done any?

Peter, my "They also list a few other things." I didn't mean manuals, I meant spec sheets.

And for 1.5" ID or 1.25" tubing/pipe, I could use the factory 1.25" or 1.5" plumbing connectors that Clack makes for situations like this and as you say, I'd be to 'Code".

You also say "I doubt they would notice any leakage in a shower even if it was occurring.". And then Bob in reply to that says "Perhaps he sold a softener with a 1" valve for the high demand showers and as a result the user never got the high flow because of the pressure drop through the 1" valve head.".

Which makes me question why you would say that when leakage and pressure loss are two very different things and not related in this. Those statements shows your and Bob's lack of knowledge and experience of water softening and sizing softeners. Also, my and other dealers' experience says people with a water softener usually can tell right away when they get a grain or two of hardness through their softeners; especially the lady of the house. Just in case, I send my customers a test kit for those times that will tell them if they have 1 or more gpg of hardness leakage. I can not recall anytime that someone had leakage and there wasn't something physically wrong with the softener. And as soon as that was fixed and the unit was regenerated properly, they got soft water again. In other words, I have not had leakage problems. And the same goes for pressure loss, no complaints and most guys can tell if there is a pressure or flow real quick and they are looking for any right after installing the softener..

Skip says "If your are not using the resin, then why sell it?". I have seen you say you set a "32K" at 9-12 lbs. instead of the maximum 15 lb salt dose for 1.0 cuft of resin, one of the reasons you do that is the answer to your question.

Riverside, Bob says "You will definitely see less pressure loss with the 1.25" valve as compared to the 1" valve.". That is at best an incomplete answer and factually it is incorrect because you have to look at the whole softener, including the distributor tube and the type of resin used. The standard distributor tube for the WS-1.25 is not 1.25", the standard is 1.05" OD. Why would you suppose that is?

[Bob999]

The standard distributor tube for the WS-1.25 is not 1.25", the standard is 1.05" OD. Why would you suppose that is?

There you go again making up facts. Check the specification sheets for the 1" and 1.25" valves. The 1" valve has a distributor pilot of 1.05" (note it is the opening in the valve--the distributor tube is a separate part.) The 1.25" valve has a distributor pilot of 1.32" (again that is the opening in the valve body--the distributor tube is a separate part.) I can only assume that when you say standard distributor tube you are making reference to what your wholesale distributor lists in the catalog as a combination of a valve and a distributor tube.

However you do raise an important point--if a plumbing system is being designed for a specified flow rate it is important to pay attention to each component. It certainly wouldn't make sense to pay for a 1.25" valve and then use a 1" distributor tube with that valve. Similarly it wouldn't make sense to pay for a 1.25" valve to connect to 1" plumbing.

[Peter Griffin]

[QUOTE=Gary Slusser;247989]



And for 1.5" ID or 1.25" tubing/pipe, I could use the factory 1.25" or 1.5" plumbing connectors that Clack makes for situations like this and as you say, I'd be to 'Code".



Are you saying, using 1 1/4" connectors on the ws1 valve head? If so, then you have only defeated the whole piont of going up in valve head size. There is more than just a connector size difference between the valves. It probably would fool an inspector though, if that was the intended purpose.

[Gary Slusser]

I think there are at least two reasons for using a larger amount of resin (4 cubic foot in the specific example) if the assumed maximum demand is 20-25 gpm with 20 gpg hardness. First a bit of background information which I expect you know but that other readers may not:

Actually first and foremost it is to provide the constant Service Flow Rating gpm required for the peak demand gpm of the system the softener is treating.

Which allows for setting the salt dose based on the capacity needed for the regeneration schedule you want at the best salt efficiency.

1. The salt efficiency of a softener is higher when the maximum capacity of the resin is NOT used. If one cubic foot of resin is regenerated with 6 lbs of salt the salt efficiency is approximately 3400 grains per lb of salt and approximately 20,000 grains of capacity are available. If that same one foot of resin is regenerated with 15 lbs of salt the salt efficiency is about 2000 grains per lb of salt and about 30,000 grains of capacity are available. Resin manufacturers publish curves and regeneration rates for one cubic foot vary from 3 lbs per cubic foot to 15 lbs per cubic foot.

I've told him this numerous times over the last year or more here under the 2-3 names he's used here but hopefully he'll believe you.

2. The hardness leakage of a softener is lower when the flow per cubic foot of resin is lower. The higher the flow rate per cubic foot of resin the higher the hardness leakage.

So, to answer your question as to why a larger softener might be used, it would be to achieve greater salt efficiency and/or lower hardness leakage. Depending on the cost of salt compared to the cost of resin and the larger tank required for the larger amount of resin and the customers discount rate it may or may not make economic sense to go with a larger amount of resin to achieve greater salt efficiency.

It is all based on the constant SFR gpm required. If you don't get that right nothing else matters and leakage will be so high it's like not having a softener. That is how softeners must be sized and doing it that way also prevents noticeable pressure loss.

Hardness leakage in the typical residential application is a matter of personal preference and again it is really up to the customer to decide what hardness leakage is satisfactory.

The vast majority of prospective customers do not know what the word leakage means and 99% will say they do not want any hard water getting through their softener. Which is the way it should be. But... as an example, what amount of leakage would you say is OK?

The problem from the sellors point of view, in my opinion, is that it is very difficult to help the customer make an informed decision about an acceptable level of hardness leakage--getting reliable data about what hardness leakage will actually be is difficult at best and explaining or demonstrating the impact of hardness leakage is also problematic.

I have explained leakage to thousands of prospective customers, it's not difficult and the WQA says the amount of acceptable hardness (leakage) in softened water is 1 gpg or less. I say 0 gpg is what everyone should have and expect.. And when you talk to people after describing leakage, no one wants any. Well every once in awhile there is a guy that before he buys a softener will say he doesn't like the slippery feel and he wants to add some hardness back into the softened water. That's until he gets used to the feel and then any hardness drives him nuts.

[Gary Slusser]

There you go again making up facts. Check the specification sheets for the 1" and 1.25" valves. The 1" valve has a distributor pilot of 1.05" (note it is the opening in the valve--the distributor tube is a separate part.) The 1.25" valve has a distributor pilot of 1.32" (again that is the opening in the valve body--the distributor tube is a separate part.) I can only assume that when you say standard distributor tube you are making reference to what your wholesale distributor lists in the catalog as a combination of a valve and a distributor tube.

Yes I know what the spec sheets say. And again reading spec sheets is where you are getting your limited knowledge from. And yes distributors, independent dealers' suppliers, order the valves in from the manufacturer based on the size of the DT normally used. Then change the pi;ot if they go to a larger DT. So those are the facts Bob. Now ask yourself why they would normally use a smaller distributor tube than the porting of the control valve. And then why a WS-1 on up to a 21" tank and maybe on 1.25" and 1.5" plumbing.

However you do raise an important point--if a plumbing system is being designed for a specified flow rate it is important to pay attention to each component. It certainly wouldn't make sense to pay for a 1.25" valve and then use a 1" distributor tube with that valve. Similarly it wouldn't make sense to pay for a 1.25" valve to connect to 1" plumbing.

Likewise, unless the salesperson wants to make more money or the prospective uninformed customer WANTS the larger control valve, there's no sense in a larger ported control valve when a smaller one will work; as an example here in this case where people are convincing Riverside that he should want a larger valve. Had I not mentioned the distributor tube he'd get a 1.05" from 9 out of 10 dealers because he doesn't need the larger valve or DT.

And how about the by pass valve Bob, do you see a 1.25" or larger? Do you know the 1" is used for the 1" and the 1.25" valves?

Ask yourself what the pressure loss would be when 1.25" ID water line is reduced through say 6-7" of 1" ID plastic into a 14"-21" dia tank and then through 5' 2"+/- of 1.05" OD plastic DT and then through 6-7" of 1" plastic then back into 1.25". Peter should be able to help you if needed. Then tell me how a softener owner without pressure gauges before and after the softener can tell there is that amount of pressure loss.

[Bob999]

Yes I know what the spec sheets say. And again reading spec sheets is where you are getting your limited knowledge from. And yes distributors, independent dealers' suppliers, order the valves in from the manufacturer based on the size of the DT normally used. Then change the pi;ot if they go to a larger DT. So those are the facts Bob. Now ask yourself why they would normally use a smaller distributor tube than the porting of the control valve. And then why a WS-1 on up to a 21" tank and maybe on 1.25" and 1.5" plumbing.


Likewise, unless the salesperson wants to make more money or the prospective uninformed customer WANTS the larger control valve, there's no sense in a larger ported control valve when a smaller one will work; as an example here in this case where people are convincing Riverside that he should want a larger valve. Had I not mentioned the distributor tube he'd get a 1.05" from 9 out of 10 dealers because he doesn't need the larger valve or DT.

And how about the by pass valve Bob, do you see a 1.25" or larger? Do you know the 1" is used for the 1" and the 1.25" valves?

Ask yourself what the pressure loss would be when 1.25" ID water line is reduced through say 6-7" of 1" ID plastic into a 14"-21" dia tank and then through 5' 2"+/- of 1.05" OD plastic DT and then through 6-7" of 1" plastic then back into 1.25". Peter should be able to help you if needed. Then tell me how a softener owner without pressure gauges before and after the softener can tell there is that amount of pressure loss.

Gary, there you go again. Bashing me because of unfounded assumptions you make about my background, experience and knowledge base. However, I acknowledge that I do rely on published technical data as one of the sources of my information--don't you?

I think it is telling that a salesman who sells from a no fixed address mobile home continually questions and berates the knowledge, experience and background of other posters. So be it. I am content to let the reader read what I post and decide for himself.

And yes I have no doubt that there are unscrupulous dealers who would sell a 1.25" valve with a 1" distributor tube to an unsuspecting customer to make a little more profit. I hope you are not one of them.