Softener system for new home - ATTN GARY

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Nofears67

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Ok let's please get back to my question...

Will it hurt anything if I go with the 1.25" Clack valve?
Will I see less pressure loss with the 1.25" valve as compared to the 1"?

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NHmaster

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No, it will not hurt anything and yes, you will see less pressure loss and you will be code compliant as well.
 

Bob999

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Ok let's please get back to my question...

Will it hurt anything if I go with the 1.25" Clack valve?
Will I see less pressure loss with the 1.25" valve as compared to the 1"?

Thanks

No it will not cause any problem to go with a 1.25" Clack valve. The meter on the 1.25" valve has the same sensitivity as the 1" valve so it will sense the same flows--down to .25 gpm. You will definitely see less pressure loss with the 1.25" valve as compared to the 1" valve.

The only possible downside to the 1.25" valve is that it costs more--but it also has better performance.
 

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If your are not using the resin, then why sell it?

I think there are at least two reasons for using a larger amount of resin (4 cubic foot in the specific example) if the assumed maximum demand is 20-25 gpm with 20 gpg hardness. First a bit of background information which I expect you know but that other readers may not:

1. The salt efficiency of a softener is higher when the maximum capacity of the resin is NOT used. If one cubic foot of resin is regenerated with 6 lbs of salt the salt efficiency is approximately 3400 grains per lb of salt and approximately 20,000 grains of capacity are available. If that same one foot of resin is regenerated with 15 lbs of salt the salt efficiency is about 2000 grains per lb of salt and about 30,000 grains of capacity are available. Resin manufacturers publish curves and regeneration rates for one cubic foot vary from 3 lbs per cubic foot to 15 lbs per cubic foot.

2. The hardness leakage of a softener is lower when the flow per cubic foot of resin is lower. The higher the flow rate per cubic foot of resin the higher the hardness leakage.

So, to answer your question as to why a larger softener might be used, it would be to achieve greater salt efficiency and/or lower hardness leakage. Depending on the cost of salt compared to the cost of resin and the larger tank required for the larger amount of resin and the customers discount rate it may or may not make economic sense to go with a larger amount of resin to achieve greater salt efficiency. Hardness leakage in the typical residential application is a matter of personal preference and again it is really up to the customer to decide what hardness leakage is satisfactory. The problem from the sellors point of view, in my opinion, is that it is very difficult to help the customer make an informed decision about an acceptable level of hardness leakage--getting reliable data about what hardness leakage will actually be is difficult at best and explaining or demonstrating the impact of hardness leakage is also problematic.
 

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Bob, selling from a no fixed address does not bother my customers. Actually, they all know where I am based on a pinpoint GPS address. And in reading what you said, I see you relate my traveling around the country as me having no hands on first hand experience and yet you know I have installed and serviced equipment as a local dealer for18-19 yrs as an independent local dealer.

But why does it bother you or have anything to do with what is being discussed?

BTW, it is an RV (recreation vehicle), a motor home, not a mobile home. I'm not seeing a distortion in what I said but I do see errors in what you are saying and talking about.

You mention the forum is to "share experience" Bob, yet you have consistently refused to say what your experience is. What is your experience Bob? Have you ever sold a softener to anyone? Installed one? How about service, have you done any?

Peter, my "They also list a few other things." I didn't mean manuals, I meant spec sheets.

And for 1.5" ID or 1.25" tubing/pipe, I could use the factory 1.25" or 1.5" plumbing connectors that Clack makes for situations like this and as you say, I'd be to 'Code".

You also say "I doubt they would notice any leakage in a shower even if it was occurring.". And then Bob in reply to that says "Perhaps he sold a softener with a 1" valve for the high demand showers and as a result the user never got the high flow because of the pressure drop through the 1" valve head.".

Which makes me question why you would say that when leakage and pressure loss are two very different things and not related in this. Those statements shows your and Bob's lack of knowledge and experience of water softening and sizing softeners. Also, my and other dealers' experience says people with a water softener usually can tell right away when they get a grain or two of hardness through their softeners; especially the lady of the house. Just in case, I send my customers a test kit for those times that will tell them if they have 1 or more gpg of hardness leakage. I can not recall anytime that someone had leakage and there wasn't something physically wrong with the softener. And as soon as that was fixed and the unit was regenerated properly, they got soft water again. In other words, I have not had leakage problems. And the same goes for pressure loss, no complaints and most guys can tell if there is a pressure or flow real quick and they are looking for any right after installing the softener..

Skip says "If your are not using the resin, then why sell it?". I have seen you say you set a "32K" at 9-12 lbs. instead of the maximum 15 lb salt dose for 1.0 cuft of resin, one of the reasons you do that is the answer to your question.

Riverside, Bob says "You will definitely see less pressure loss with the 1.25" valve as compared to the 1" valve.". That is at best an incomplete answer and factually it is incorrect because you have to look at the whole softener, including the distributor tube and the type of resin used. The standard distributor tube for the WS-1.25 is not 1.25", the standard is 1.05" OD. Why would you suppose that is?
 

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The standard distributor tube for the WS-1.25 is not 1.25", the standard is 1.05" OD. Why would you suppose that is?

There you go again making up facts. Check the specification sheets for the 1" and 1.25" valves. The 1" valve has a distributor pilot of 1.05" (note it is the opening in the valve--the distributor tube is a separate part.) The 1.25" valve has a distributor pilot of 1.32" (again that is the opening in the valve body--the distributor tube is a separate part.) I can only assume that when you say standard distributor tube you are making reference to what your wholesale distributor lists in the catalog as a combination of a valve and a distributor tube.

However you do raise an important point--if a plumbing system is being designed for a specified flow rate it is important to pay attention to each component. It certainly wouldn't make sense to pay for a 1.25" valve and then use a 1" distributor tube with that valve. Similarly it wouldn't make sense to pay for a 1.25" valve to connect to 1" plumbing.
 
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NHmaster

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And for 1.5" ID or 1.25" tubing/pipe, I could use the factory 1.25" or 1.5" plumbing connectors that Clack makes for situations like this and as you say, I'd be to 'Code".



Are you saying, using 1 1/4" connectors on the ws1 valve head? If so, then you have only defeated the whole piont of going up in valve head size. There is more than just a connector size difference between the valves. It probably would fool an inspector though, if that was the intended purpose.
 

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I think there are at least two reasons for using a larger amount of resin (4 cubic foot in the specific example) if the assumed maximum demand is 20-25 gpm with 20 gpg hardness. First a bit of background information which I expect you know but that other readers may not:
Actually first and foremost it is to provide the constant Service Flow Rating gpm required for the peak demand gpm of the system the softener is treating.

Which allows for setting the salt dose based on the capacity needed for the regeneration schedule you want at the best salt efficiency.

1. The salt efficiency of a softener is higher when the maximum capacity of the resin is NOT used. If one cubic foot of resin is regenerated with 6 lbs of salt the salt efficiency is approximately 3400 grains per lb of salt and approximately 20,000 grains of capacity are available. If that same one foot of resin is regenerated with 15 lbs of salt the salt efficiency is about 2000 grains per lb of salt and about 30,000 grains of capacity are available. Resin manufacturers publish curves and regeneration rates for one cubic foot vary from 3 lbs per cubic foot to 15 lbs per cubic foot.
I've told him this numerous times over the last year or more here under the 2-3 names he's used here but hopefully he'll believe you.

2. The hardness leakage of a softener is lower when the flow per cubic foot of resin is lower. The higher the flow rate per cubic foot of resin the higher the hardness leakage.

So, to answer your question as to why a larger softener might be used, it would be to achieve greater salt efficiency and/or lower hardness leakage. Depending on the cost of salt compared to the cost of resin and the larger tank required for the larger amount of resin and the customers discount rate it may or may not make economic sense to go with a larger amount of resin to achieve greater salt efficiency.
It is all based on the constant SFR gpm required. If you don't get that right nothing else matters and leakage will be so high it's like not having a softener. That is how softeners must be sized and doing it that way also prevents noticeable pressure loss.

Hardness leakage in the typical residential application is a matter of personal preference and again it is really up to the customer to decide what hardness leakage is satisfactory.
The vast majority of prospective customers do not know what the word leakage means and 99% will say they do not want any hard water getting through their softener. Which is the way it should be. But... as an example, what amount of leakage would you say is OK?

The problem from the sellors point of view, in my opinion, is that it is very difficult to help the customer make an informed decision about an acceptable level of hardness leakage--getting reliable data about what hardness leakage will actually be is difficult at best and explaining or demonstrating the impact of hardness leakage is also problematic.
I have explained leakage to thousands of prospective customers, it's not difficult and the WQA says the amount of acceptable hardness (leakage) in softened water is 1 gpg or less. I say 0 gpg is what everyone should have and expect.. And when you talk to people after describing leakage, no one wants any. Well every once in awhile there is a guy that before he buys a softener will say he doesn't like the slippery feel and he wants to add some hardness back into the softened water. That's until he gets used to the feel and then any hardness drives him nuts.
 

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There you go again making up facts. Check the specification sheets for the 1" and 1.25" valves. The 1" valve has a distributor pilot of 1.05" (note it is the opening in the valve--the distributor tube is a separate part.) The 1.25" valve has a distributor pilot of 1.32" (again that is the opening in the valve body--the distributor tube is a separate part.) I can only assume that when you say standard distributor tube you are making reference to what your wholesale distributor lists in the catalog as a combination of a valve and a distributor tube.
Yes I know what the spec sheets say. And again reading spec sheets is where you are getting your limited knowledge from. And yes distributors, independent dealers' suppliers, order the valves in from the manufacturer based on the size of the DT normally used. Then change the pi;ot if they go to a larger DT. So those are the facts Bob. Now ask yourself why they would normally use a smaller distributor tube than the porting of the control valve. And then why a WS-1 on up to a 21" tank and maybe on 1.25" and 1.5" plumbing.

However you do raise an important point--if a plumbing system is being designed for a specified flow rate it is important to pay attention to each component. It certainly wouldn't make sense to pay for a 1.25" valve and then use a 1" distributor tube with that valve. Similarly it wouldn't make sense to pay for a 1.25" valve to connect to 1" plumbing.
Likewise, unless the salesperson wants to make more money or the prospective uninformed customer WANTS the larger control valve, there's no sense in a larger ported control valve when a smaller one will work; as an example here in this case where people are convincing Riverside that he should want a larger valve. Had I not mentioned the distributor tube he'd get a 1.05" from 9 out of 10 dealers because he doesn't need the larger valve or DT.

And how about the by pass valve Bob, do you see a 1.25" or larger? Do you know the 1" is used for the 1" and the 1.25" valves?

Ask yourself what the pressure loss would be when 1.25" ID water line is reduced through say 6-7" of 1" ID plastic into a 14"-21" dia tank and then through 5' 2"+/- of 1.05" OD plastic DT and then through 6-7" of 1" plastic then back into 1.25". Peter should be able to help you if needed. Then tell me how a softener owner without pressure gauges before and after the softener can tell there is that amount of pressure loss.
 
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Bob999

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Yes I know what the spec sheets say. And again reading spec sheets is where you are getting your limited knowledge from. And yes distributors, independent dealers' suppliers, order the valves in from the manufacturer based on the size of the DT normally used. Then change the pi;ot if they go to a larger DT. So those are the facts Bob. Now ask yourself why they would normally use a smaller distributor tube than the porting of the control valve. And then why a WS-1 on up to a 21" tank and maybe on 1.25" and 1.5" plumbing.


Likewise, unless the salesperson wants to make more money or the prospective uninformed customer WANTS the larger control valve, there's no sense in a larger ported control valve when a smaller one will work; as an example here in this case where people are convincing Riverside that he should want a larger valve. Had I not mentioned the distributor tube he'd get a 1.05" from 9 out of 10 dealers because he doesn't need the larger valve or DT.

And how about the by pass valve Bob, do you see a 1.25" or larger? Do you know the 1" is used for the 1" and the 1.25" valves?

Ask yourself what the pressure loss would be when 1.25" ID water line is reduced through say 6-7" of 1" ID plastic into a 14"-21" dia tank and then through 5' 2"+/- of 1.05" OD plastic DT and then through 6-7" of 1" plastic then back into 1.25". Peter should be able to help you if needed. Then tell me how a softener owner without pressure gauges before and after the softener can tell there is that amount of pressure loss.

Gary, there you go again. Bashing me because of unfounded assumptions you make about my background, experience and knowledge base. However, I acknowledge that I do rely on published technical data as one of the sources of my information--don't you?

I think it is telling that a salesman who sells from a no fixed address mobile home continually questions and berates the knowledge, experience and background of other posters. So be it. I am content to let the reader read what I post and decide for himself.

And yes I have no doubt that there are unscrupulous dealers who would sell a 1.25" valve with a 1" distributor tube to an unsuspecting customer to make a little more profit. I hope you are not one of them.
 
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I have explained leakage to thousands of prospective customers, it's not difficult and the WQA says the amount of acceptable hardness (leakage) in softened water is 1 gpg or less. I say 0 gpg is what everyone should have and expect.

There have been previous discussions about leakage. Let me say again that I understand that zero grains per gallon of hardness means zero parts per million of hardness. With that understanding I think it is misleading at best, and dishonest at worst, to describe a typical residential softener as delivering "0 gpg". It just doesn't happen with softeners regenerated with a few lbs of salt per cubic foot and used with flow rates of up to 9 gallons per cubic foot of resin.

I think I understand from your previous posting on this matter that you use a fairly crude hardness test--one that is only calibrated in units of one or more grains per gallon and that what you really mean when you say "0 gpg" is that with the hardness test you use that the test doesn't show 1 or more gpg.
 

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Gary, there you go again. Bashing me because of unfounded assumptions you make about my background, experience and knowledge base. However, I acknowledge that I do rely on published technical data as one of the sources of my information--don't you?
Bashing you? If you have field experience, state what it is and realize that so far without stating it you are lying by omission. On the other hand I lay my experience out for all to see and all you seem to do is pick it apart because it doesn't match your understanding of things solely based on spec sheets. I'm replying to what you have said has been based on only spec sheets. Spec sheets don't tell the whole story and in your case you are missing something on some of those spec sheets and I am not going to tell you what it is until you mention it, and then maybe not then anyway because I'm thinking you will pick apart my explanation of that like you did with your resin spec sheet SFR argument.

I think it is telling that a salesman who sells from a no fixed address mobile home continually questions and berates the knowledge, experience and background of other posters. So be it. I am content to let the reader read what I post and decide for himself.
So again you are claiming I don't know what I'm doing because I live in and travel around the country in a motor home!! While your knowledge of softener sizing is based on what you read on spec sheets...

Anyway, what is your experience and background in sizing softeners and I'll include troubleshooting them for someone other than yourself; if you've ever actually done that. Tell us Bob, and if you don't, I say you are only using the spec sheets that you have mentioned reading a few days ago.

Look how few posts of yours are in reply to anyone with problems and compare them to your posts that in essence say I'm wrong about something.

And yes I have no doubt that there are unscrupulous dealers who would sell a 1.25" valve with a 1" distributor tube to an unsuspecting customer to make a little more profit. I hope you are not one of them.
You should have your answer about my scruples Bob because our discussion has me saying that Riverside doesn't need the larger valve.

I sold a WS-1 to a master plumber for a customer of his in a 135 seat steakhouse and then after he ordered it he called to apologize to me for saying I was wrong (just like you are here) and wanted to change from the WS-1.25" to the 1" two days after it had already shipped. He insisted as you are here that the 1" wouldn't deliver the gpm he needed. That was until he got his plumbing sizing books out and looked up what I told him.

IMO Bob, that is some of my actual and factual field experience and the unit is a year old next month. The only problem with it was someone left it run out of salt last summer. It is a 6.5 cuft (16 or 18" tank IIRC) WS-1.25" unit on 1.5" main with city water, reduced by that master plumber of 35 yrs from 2" (Peter).
 

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Well thanks for the info there but I don't make the rules, I enforce them. You and anybody else is more than welcome to file complaints and perhaps get things changed. I'm n ot in the change things business. I can not and will not overlook code violations based on how I feel about the code nor how I may feel about the situation or the individual. I don't make those distinctions because I do not want to take the liablility should something ever make it's way to court.

I have to ammend this though. Just because there is a 2" main coming into a building does not mean you have to keep it 2" The code only sets a minimum size and that is 3/4". What you do have to do though is to figure out the total load on the building taking into account number and type of fixtures, the incomiong pressure and the total developed length and head pressure on the system. 2" may very well have been grossly oversized right from the get go. Further more the steak house itself may not have needed to run softened water to all of their fixtures.
 
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Look how few posts of yours are in reply to anyone with problems and compare them to your posts that in essence say I'm wrong about something.

Sad but there is a bit of truth in your statement--I have posted a number of times putting forth information only to have you bash me and the information I posted and then I have been in the position of providing explanations. Two examples stand out--when I posted that chlorine treatment is much less costly when done with a solution injector and bleach rather than using an inline pellet feeder and when I noted that zero grains per gallon hardness is not achieved in typical residental installations. In both cases you went on and on bashing me and posting diversionary information. However, in the end, I think the record shows that the information I posted was correct.
 

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There have been previous discussions about leakage. Let me say again that I understand that zero grains per gallon of hardness means zero parts per million of hardness. With that understanding I think it is misleading at best, and dishonest at worst, to describe a typical residential softener as delivering "0 gpg". It just doesn't happen with softeners regenerated with a few lbs of salt per cubic foot and used with flow rates of up to 9 gallons per cubic foot of resin.
Emphasis above is mine. And I'm going to correct you again by simply stating that in residential softening the test used is grains per gallon, not ppm or mg/l. And if a lab etc. does it in ppm or mg/l it is converted to gpg. Call any dealer or resin manufacturer and learn the error of your way Bob.

Bottom line Bob, all softeners are programmed to a certain K of capacity right?

Is that K in ppm or mg/l or is it in GPG (grains per gallon)? It is GPG, not mg/l or ppm Bob.

Yes there can be X ppm or mg/l (same measurement) in the softened water and the residential owner will never notice it or have it cause problems for him.

The spec sheet 1-5 ppm or mg/l per cuft is for industrial/commercial folks where over a certain ppm level, the hardness will cause them problems; like pharmaceutical, chemical, electronics and plating manufacturers as a small example Bob.

I think I understand from your previous posting on this matter that you use a fairly crude hardness test--one that is only calibrated in units of one or more grains per gallon and that what you really mean when you say "0 gpg" is that with the hardness test you use that the test doesn't show 1 or more gpg.
Well then you're wrong again Bob and I've explained it to you 3-4 times now but here you are again.

The test kit I send all softener customers (yes my supplier that ships the softener includes it, I personally do not ship anything from my no fixed address motor home....it's called drop shipping Bob) gives a hard test result if there is one or more gpg of hardness in their softened water because all softeners are set up in GPG Bob, not ppm or mg/l. And the salt efficiency is set based on X K of capacity per lb of salt used and per cuft of resin Bob.
 

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And I'm going to correct you again by simply stating that in residential softening the test used is grains per gallon, not ppm or mg/l. And if a lab etc. does it in ppm or mg/l it is converted to gpg.

I disagree. In support of my position I point to the numerous posts on this website where hardness is expressed in PPM--these are posted by homeowners and, I am assuming, are for residential purposes.

Grains per gallon is simply a scale for expressing hardness, as is ppm. There is a very simple equivalency between the two scales. 17.1 ppm of hardness equals 1 grain per gallon per hardness.

So I believe that a correct statement is that both ppm and gpg are used in measuring residential hardness.

I do agree with your statement that the capacity of residential softeners is typically expressed in grains per gallon.

I note that you have posted nothing to indicate that my statement that 0 gpg is equal to 0 ppm is not correct.

As to your statement about spec sheets:

The spec sheet 1-5 ppm or mg/l per cuft is for industrial/commercial folks where over a certain ppm level, the hardness will cause them problems; like pharmaceutical, chemical, electronics and plating manufacturers as a small example Bob.

I believe that spec sheets are just that--specifications. They apply to industrial applications and they apply to residential applications.
 

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I think we have reached the point of impass.
 

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Akpsdvan

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Wounder if I could still find that bomb shelter that we built as kids back in the 60's....
 

Nofears67

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OK...so after all that. I just want to make sure that I experience the LEAST amount of pressure loss possible when under normal or full bore scenarios through the softener.

If the 1.25" will impart LESS psi loss, then I'll go with that...I mean..how much more can it be as compared to the 1" ?
If the 1.25" will impart the SAME psi loss as the 1" then it makes no sense to buy the 1.25"...
 

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Well thanks for the info there but I don't make the rules, I enforce them. You and anybody else is more than welcome to file complaints and perhaps get things changed. I'm n ot in the change things business. I can not and will not overlook code violations based on how I feel about the code nor how I may feel about the situation or the individual. I don't make those distinctions because I do not want to take the liablility should something ever make it's way to court.

I have to ammend this though. Just because there is a 2" main coming into a building does not mean you have to keep it 2" The code only sets a minimum size and that is 3/4". What you do have to do though is to figure out the total load on the building taking into account number and type of fixtures, the incomiong pressure and the total developed length and head pressure on the system. 2" may very well have been grossly oversized right from the get go. Further more the steak house itself may not have needed to run softened water to all of their fixtures.
The code also says ID reduction is fine as long as it does not reduce pressure below the minimum, and your statment would apply in this case of 1.25" or 1.5" water line and a 1" control valve. That is because we don't have a peak demand for the total house yet, just the large shower or two showers.
 
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