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Thread: Softener system for new home - ATTN GARY

  1. #61
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Griffin View Post
    Clack lists a 15lb service pressure drop for all three valves
    The 1" flows 27 gpm, the 1.25 flows 34 gpm and the 1.50 flows 60 gpm.
    They also list a few other things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Griffin View Post
    If I recall correctly the cold water supply piping is 1 1/2 which by code dictates an 1 1/2 valve body.
    As I've already said, the code calls for no reduction of the ID for the plumbing connections; not the control valve ID or the distributor tube. Possibly you neeed to look that up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Griffin View Post
    I also remember the SFU being around 44 gpm which is with both mega showers running at the same time, full bore.
    Now we are talking half that; 20-22 gpm and 1.25" tubing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Griffin View Post
    Admittedly that scenario is probably the exception to the rule but it may happen occasionally. So the question is whether or not you go with a smaller valve and unit and occasional get some amount of hard water through the system or you go with a 1 1/2 valve and size for maximum volume.
    IIRC he said every morning and I have many softeners in houses with this type shower being used every day and sometimes twice a day.

    Based on the regeneration schedule channeling will not be a problem.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  2. #62
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akpsdvan View Post
    The other side of the coin with the larger unit is that it is more likely to not see the low flow rate of water, ie 1.5 gpm and lower may not be seen by the meter, what ever meter is used.

    Now if one is Always Going to be using 2+gpm then great... but if there is low usage or ice makers ro systems... then that larger meter is not going to see it.
    The 1" and 1.25" Clack doesn't have that problem but I'd have to look up the 1.5" metering. Edit: I looked all 3 up and the metering is .25 for the 1 and 1.25" and .5 gpm for the 1.5". So IMO the 1.5" would not be a good choice for residential.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akpsdvan View Post
    With that much resin and low flow there are other challenges that will come into the picture, channeling will be the biggest and most likely one to happen, not just once but a lot.

    Big units are often times on water that is Always Flowing and never stopping.
    I consistently sell up to 4.0 cuft softeners and the regeneration schedule prevents channeling. And many years ago I sold a 8 or 10 cuft softener without constant flow without a metering problem. Hotels, motels 24/7 car washes etc. don't have constant flow.
    Last edited by Gary Slusser; 02-05-2010 at 11:50 PM.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  3. #63
    In the Trades Akpsdvan's Avatar
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    This has turned in to a poll cat marking contest....

    And I will not continue down this childish path.

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skip Wolverton View Post
    A 4 cu ft unit on 20 GPG water. You would have to use 500 gallon per day in order to regen every 8 days. IMO, a 4 cu ft is way over sized.
    I will stick by my orginal quote. I believe you need to get a local dealer involved to set this up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Akpsdvan View Post
    This has turned in to a poll cat marking contest....
    Is that an Alaska thing?

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    That no reduction thing applies to any fixture or fitting installed in the supply line that has both an inlet and an outlet. In this case the softener does indeed have both. On other words, all the water used in the building flows through the valve head. Therefore you can not reduce through the valve. The distributor tube for all three models matches the valve head for diameter.

  7. #67
    DIY Senior Member Bob999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    The Clack WS-1 has a SFR of 27 gpm @ 15 psi. That means it can be used on a tank up to and including a 21" diameter and that makes a 7.5 cuft softener. The 27 gpm means backwash flow gpm, it has nothing to do with the constant SFR gpm of the softener. The volume of resin dictates the size of the tank and the size of the tank dictates what control is needed to successfully backwash that volume of resin.
    Gary, Now I am going to say you are wrong! What I have quoted above is simply wrong! It demonstrates that you simply don't understand some basic facts about water softening equipment and the real world application of the equipment.

    I will explain why. I am doing this for readers of this board because you have consistently demonstrated that you have a closed mind.

    The post is wrong because the SFR of a water softener is determined by both the control head and the amount of resin in the softener. In the specific case the poster was asking about a softener that will handle a flow of 44 gpm. A Clack WS1 control valve will not provide a flow of 44 gpm at any usable pressure because according to the published specifications for the valve the pressure loss caused by the valve alone during service at a flow of 27 gpm is 15 psi. So even if you put a 7.5 cubic foot tank and the appropriate amount of resin on a 1" valve it will not provide a flow of 44 gpm.

    You say that the size of the tank dictates what control is needed. This is partially true. One of the rating factors for softener valves is the size of tank the valve can backwash when used for softening applications. So far so good. A second factor in the choice of a softener valve is that the valve will provide the design flow in service at a reasonable pressure loss. In this case the 1" valve will not provide a flow of 44 gpm at a reasonable pressure loss.
    Last edited by Bob999; 02-06-2010 at 07:06 AM. Reason: spelling

  8. #68
    Water system engineer riverside67's Avatar
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    It is great to see so much info coming from this thread! Some of you have missed an important change...I revised the "full bore" scenario down to 20 gpm...

    Normal flows = 0 - 10 gpm
    Full bore = 20 - 25 gpm (both showers and say..the dw)
    Last edited by riverside67; 02-06-2010 at 07:42 AM. Reason: Didnt realize this had already been mentioned

  9. #69
    DIY Senior Member Bob999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by riverside67 View Post
    It is great to see so much info coming from this thread! Some of you have missed an important change...I revised the "full bore" scenario down to 20 gpm...

    Normal flows = 0 - 10 gpm
    Full bore = 20 - 25 gpm (both showers and say..the dw)
    I understand that your design has changed in the course of the discussion in this thread. I think I made that clear when I responded to your question and said that I thought that the 1.25" valve would provide satisfactory service at the revised design point. It is my opinion, based on my understanding of your objective to provide flows of 20-25 gpm at a robust pressure, that a 1" valve would not be satisfactory--notwithstanding the fact that it would in fact flow at 20-25 gpm--because the pressure drop for the valve head alone would approach 15 psi. The pressure you would see at the point of use would be reduced further pressure loss from fittings, piping, additional valves, and the softener resin/tank.

  10. #70
    Water system engineer riverside67's Avatar
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    Given my limited knowledge of softeners and valves I still believe that an 1.25" valve, along with the 4.0 cu ft resin tank, would be the best choice as long as it would not create a "short circuiting" effect in the system at low flows. I greatly understand hydraulics and pressure losses in water systems but do not know how softener valves function and/or how their sizing affects the performance at given flow rates.

  11. #71
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    going with the 1.25 valve would be the way to go.

  12. #72
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Sorry AKpsdvan, I don't understand what this is about; "This has turned in to a poll cat marking contest...." If I guess, I come up with you being upset because you think I'm pickin' nits... I wasn't but at times I think others are.

    Originally Posted by Skip Wolverton
    A 4 cu ft unit on 20 GPG water. You would have to use 500 gallon per day in order to regen every 8 days. IMO, a 4 cu ft is way over sized.

    That's because you don't understand how to size or set up a softener by adjusting the K of capacity you need by the salt dose in lbs based on the volume and type of resin you are using so you mistakenly think 120 or128K.


    Peter says; "That no reduction thing applies to any fixture or fitting installed in the supply line that has both an inlet and an outlet. In this case the softener does indeed have both. On other words, all the water used in the building flows through the valve head. Therefore you can not reduce through the valve. The distributor tube for all three models matches the valve head for diameter."
    Name the code and quote it verbatim or post a link for us. I say it applies to the plumbing connectors, not the porting of the control valve, show me that I'm wrong.

    After considerable effort, I found the 2008 MA plumbing code (I think Mass should be 'tighter' than others) Joints and Connections section 10:07 (7) "Increasers and Reducers. When interconnecting pipes and fittings, fittings and fittings, or pipes and fittings that have different sizes the size of the increaser or reducing fittings shall be selected and installed so as to prevent the restriction of flow between the interconnection.".There's nothing in there about fixtures, control valves by pass valves distributor tubes etc..
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  13. #73
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob999 View Post
    Gary, Now I am going to say you are wrong! What I have quoted above is simply wrong! It demonstrates that you simply don't understand some basic facts about water softening equipment and the real world application of the equipment.

    I will explain why. I am doing this for readers of this board because you have consistently demonstrated that you have a closed mind.
    I've told you that you are missing something, and you are, I'm right about that Bob. So IMO it is you that has the closed mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob999 View Post
    The post is wrong because the SFR of a water softener is determined by both the control head and the amount of resin in the softener.
    Bob, that's one SFR, but there are two for all softeners.

    So Bob, I still say you are going on what you read and you are not understanding all of that and then you are missing a few points but, IMO you sound as if you have no actual field or first hand experience.

    On the other hand I do have experience based on having sold all but 1300+ Clack WS-1 valves that maintain a record of the highest gpm run through them. I size for the peak demand of the house based on the number of people, bathrooms and the type of fixtures in the house, which is what we are discussing.

    For what it is worth, over the last 6 yrs the 21st of last month, I have sold a number of 4 cuft softeners for 2 person showers with up to 6 body sprays and 2-3 shower heads. I proposed one yesterday or Thursday for an airline pilot's house in CO with 3 heads, one a Rainbird I think they call it, and 4 other heads up high on 2 walls. I have used the WS-1 for all of them except that one I haven't sold yet. I have never had a customer tell me they are getting leakage (hard water) through their softener or found that I underestimated their peak demand flow rate. I have never had a customer say they notice a pressure loss either.

    And I see that in a later post of yours than this one that I am replying to, you still say a WS-1 is too small for Riverside.

    With your going on like this I feel like the anti global warming guy must when he goes against those guys that for 20 yrs have been swearing it is, but are now found to have been using incorrect data while they still insist they're right.

    Believe it or not, if I found out I had a customer where I got it wrong, I'd be sending them more resin and a larger tank and/or a larger Clack WS CS valve and distributor tube at my expense.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  14. #74
    DIY Senior Member Bob999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    On the other hand I do have experience based on having sold all but 1300+ Clack WS-1 valves that maintain a record of the highest gpm run through them. I size for the peak demand of the house based on the number of people, bathrooms and the type of fixtures in the house, which is what we are discussing.

    For what it is worth, over the last 6 yrs the 21st of last month, I have sold a number of 4 cuft softeners for 2 person showers with up to 6 body sprays and 2-3 shower heads. I proposed one yesterday or Thursday for an airline pilot's house in CO with 3 heads, one a Rainbird I think they call it, and 4 other heads up high on 2 walls. I have used the WS-1 for all of them except that one I haven't sold yet.
    I have no doubt that you sell water softeners. I have never questioned that. Selling water softeners from your no fixed address mobile home in wherever certainly isn't hands on experience in my book.

    What I do question is your understanding that it is necessary to have both a properly sized control head and a properly sized amount of resin/tank in order to get satisfactory service. Certainly your postings here don't indicate that you understand that basic tenent of equipment selection.

    I note you provide no facts or figures or explanations--you just keep putting forward the same old same old ****.
    Last edited by Bob999; 02-06-2010 at 06:52 PM.

  15. #75
    DIY Senior Member Bob999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    And I see that in a later post of yours than this one that I am replying to, you still say a WS-1 is too small for Riverside.
    Gary, There you go again making things up. I never posted saying that a WS-1 is too small for Riverside. I challenge you to quote the alledged post.

    Perhaps you are referring to my post where I said that my opinion was that a 1" valve would not provide satisfactory service at a flow of 25 gpm. A Clack WS1 will have a pressure drop of nearly 15 psi at a flow of 25 gpm and I don't think that would be satisfactory.
    Last edited by Bob999; 02-06-2010 at 05:04 PM.

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