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Thread: Softener system for new home - ATTN GARY

  1. #16
    DIY Senior Member Bob999's Avatar
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    According to the Specifications for the Clack valve (http://www.clackcorp.com/water.htm) (click on Control valve and pick the valve of interest) The 1" Clack valve alone will cause a 15 psi pressure drop at 27 gallons per minute flow while in service. In my opinion if you go with a 1" valve you will never see 44 gallons per minute flow in your system. If you really want a flow of 44 gallons per minute you will need a 1.5 inch valve.

  2. #17
    Water system engineer riverside67's Avatar
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    Can water heaters be configured with inlets/outlets larger than 3/4" ? I think my heaters are going to be the bottleneck, and maybe I should go with the 1.5" valve.

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    You can get large commercial water heaters but the operating cost would probably be prohibitive. I have not run the numbers but @44 gpm, that's a lot of flow. Is the house piping ( Main ) and the branch going to these showers big enough to handle that flow at reasonable pressure? You are going to experience pressure loss through every device on the system. this whole thing seems like a lot of trouble to go through to take a shower. Have you broken down the cost per session yet

  4. #19
    DIY Senior Member Bob999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by riverside67 View Post
    Can water heaters be configured with inlets/outlets larger than 3/4" ? I think my heaters are going to be the bottleneck, and maybe I should go with the 1.5" valve.
    In order to get 44 gpm of warm/hot water for any length of time you will need either multiple home water heaters or a commercial water heater. In just 10 minutes you will use 440 gallons of water and perhaps 2/3 (approximately 300 gallons) will be from the water heater. For example, you would need 4 80 gallon heaters to provide 10 minutes of use and the user would almost certainly have cool water in the last few minutes.

  5. #20
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    Bob, thanks for doing the math

    The water police will be all over this thread

  6. #21
    Water system engineer riverside67's Avatar
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    Peter,
    The main line to the home is a 2" pvc line coming from a well capable of producing 60 gpm. The pressure entering the softwater system should be about 65 psi under flow conditions. I plan to run 1.25" or 1.5" hot and cold lines to the bathrooms and then 1" branch lines to each 3/4" Kohler thermostatic valves (spec'd to flow 15 gpm @ 60 psi). There will be two of these valves in each shower, both on a dedicated 1" branch. All heads will be on 3/4" pressure balance loops.

    Bob,
    I plan to have two (2) Bradford White High Performance GX‑2‑25S6SX 25 gal propane water heaters installed in series. Each one can put out 155 gals of hot water in first hour. I see your point about the 10 min hot shower if everything was full bore. I may revise my shower design by removing a head or two in each one. Still, the "full bore" scenario will not happen very often. Most likely the master shower will be the one running wide open (25-29 gpm) for extended lengths of time (15 - 20 mins).

    This is our once in a lifetime chance to build our dream home and at least one high performance shower is a must. One where the wife and I can both get in and have our own shower head to ourselves. WHere one can sit on a seat and have rain heads deluge on top of them for a while, etc.

  7. #22
    DIY Senior Member Bob999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by riverside67 View Post
    Bob,
    I plan to have two (2) Bradford White High Performance GX‑2‑25S6SX 25 gal propane water heaters installed in series. Each one can put out 155 gals of hot water in first hour. I see your point about the 10 min hot shower if everything was full bore. I may revise my shower design by removing a head or two in each one. Still, the "full bore" scenario will not happen very often. Most likely the master shower will be the one running wide open (25-29 gpm) for extended lengths of time (15 - 20 mins).

    This is our once in a lifetime chance to build our dream home and at least one high performance shower is a must. One where the wife and I can both get in and have our own shower head to ourselves. WHere one can sit on a seat and have rain heads deluge on top of them for a while, etc.
    I think I understand your dream but in my view the specs/equipment and dream still don't quite match up. The Water heaters you list will have 50 gallons of hot water immediately available and because of high recovery from high input produce another approximately 260 gallons in an hour--or about 85 gallons in 20 minutes. So your total hot water availability in 20 minutes is 50 + 85 or 135 gallons. Your single shower usage (hot plus cold) is 500 to 580 gallons in that same 20 minutes. You will not have sufficient hot water for a 20 minute shower running full bore with the single shower.

    A typical new shower head is 2.2 gpm (The Federal Energy Policy Act of 1992 required all faucet / shower fixtures made the USA to have a flow rate of no more than 2.2 GPM at 60 PSI. ). You are planning a flow more than 10 times that.

    Given that you apparently will have a well I am guessing that you will also have a septic system. Regular use of a shower that dumps 500 gallons in the septic system with a single use will have to be factored into the design of the septic system as well.

  8. #23
    Water system engineer riverside67's Avatar
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    Hmmm...now you have me worried...

    I revised my showers a bit and recalculated what the "full bore" scenario would be...32.5 gpm (instead of 44)...if both showers were running wide open. Again, this is WORST CASE scenario and not likely to happen very often, if at all.

    I see your point about insufficient hot water availability, and I know this isn't the Hot Water Heater forum, but what dual water heater scenario would you recommend considering the 32 gpm scenario? (Remember these tanks are going to be connected in series which I assume means the hot water production from the 2nd tank will be greater than specified since the incoming water will be "pre-heated" so to say).
    Dual 80 gal heaters?
    Dual Bradford White GX‑1‑55S6SX 55 gal heaters?

    The more likely "regular" flow scenario (under normal circumstances) would be between 7.5 - 20 gpm with both showers running.

    Oh and regarding the septic system...it will have a 1500 gal tank and respectively sized leach field (4x75' quik 4 chambers). It should not be an issue especially considering that the "full bore scenario will not happen very often and under normal use the showers would flow between 7.5 - 20 gpm combined total under normal use.
    Last edited by riverside67; 01-29-2010 at 11:25 AM.

  9. #24
    DIY Senior Member Bob999's Avatar
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    The water heaters you list have 3/4" connections. I don't think a series connection is appropriate--I believe that the connection should be parallel. Even with your reduced demand it seems to me you should be considering the 55 gallon version of the water heater--that will up your availability for the first 20 minutes to 110 + 85=195 gallons. This is probably still less than needed for 20 gpm for 20 minutes and if that is your design point then I think you will need an additional water heater (for a total of 3).

    If you have not already done so I recommend you specifically discuss the showers with the septic field designer. The showers you are planning are well outside the normal design factors used.

  10. #25
    Water system engineer riverside67's Avatar
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    What about using two 100 gallon M-I-100T6SX Bradford White 100 gallon water heaters?

  11. #26
    In the Trades Akpsdvan's Avatar
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    What is the starting temp of the water coming into the house?

    Would you also have a recirculating system for the hot water?

    Another idea would be Boiler Mate water heater on the boiler that is heating your house.

  12. #27
    DIY Senior Member Bob999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by riverside67 View Post
    What about using two 100 gallon M-I-100T6SX Bradford White 100 gallon water heaters?
    That model would provide about 130 gal/unit in the first 20 minutes or about 260 gallons for 2 units. So depending on the temperature of the water in the storage tank, the temperature of your incoming water, and the temperature of the water you want in the showers these units may provide the 400 gallons of water needed for a 20 minute shower at 20 gpm. In order to make a purchasing decision you need to consider the temperature of your incoming water, the temperature you will set the heaters for, the design temperature for the shower water as well as your design point (GPM for x minutes) for water usage.

    Two water heaters with 88,000 BTU input each will be a consideration in the sizing of your propane tank.

    Given the very large hot water demands you are considering you also need to consider whether the decision of how to heat water can/should be integrated with how you heat the home. You haven't told us where this home will be located and how it will be heated but using a heating boiler for short term high hot water demand may be a viable approach in certain situations.
    Last edited by Bob999; 01-29-2010 at 02:19 PM. Reason: spelling

  13. #28
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    Seems like a huge expense and a whole lot of effort to take a shower, What exactly are you doing in there?

  14. #29
    Water system engineer riverside67's Avatar
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    I'm not sure of the temp of the incoming water, I will find out this weekend.

    Like I said many times...it is NOT likely that both showers will be operating "full bore". Since the master shower will be large enough for two (or eight...) people it is more likely that we'll both be in there maxing that out at one time.

    I have further refined the master shower to run 20 gpm at full bore. I would consider this worst case scenario now.

    I'm sure we'll set the tank temps at 120+ and the shower temp will normally be between 90-95.

    The propane tank will be a 500 gallon.

    I'll get back to you all with the water temp.
    Last edited by riverside67; 01-29-2010 at 03:36 PM.

  15. #30
    DIY Senior Member Bob999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by riverside67 View Post
    Like I said many times...it is NOT likely that both showers will be operating "full bore". Since the master shower will be large enough for two (or eight...) people it is more likely that we'll both be in there maxing that out at one time.

    I have further refined the master shower to run 20 gpm at full bore. I would consider this worst case scenario now.

    .
    You must ultimately decide what the design specification is going to be. Are you going to size to provide for the one shower only and for only x minutes--or will you include some other concurrent use(s) in your design specification. The temperature of the water in the water heater makes a significant difference in the storage capacity needed. It is generally recommended that residential water heaters be set at or below 120 degrees F to reduce the risk of burns and to reduce off cycle heat loss. But increasing the temperature can allow a reduction in the size of tank in a situation like yours where you are are sizing for a short term demand. One approach is use higher storage temperatures and to use a mixing valve to temper the water as it is taken from the tank--this reduces the risk of burns.

    You seem to be saying that your design specification is 20 gpm of xx degree water for yy minutes. I suggest you check the temperature of the water in which you typically shower.

    90 to 95 degrees seems low to me in light of the fact that normal body temperature is approximately 99 degrees and most people like water to be warmer than body temperature.

    I have no experience sizing propane tanks but do know that the ability to provide an adequate flow for any given size tank is dependent upon the ambient temperature of the tank. If you live in an area with cold winters the tank will have to be larger than would be required in an area with warmer temperatures. If you end up with water heaters that have an input approaching 200,000 BTU/hr I suspect that a larger than 500 gallon tank will be required. Again you need to discuss that with the tank supplier--along with any other concurrent uses of propane you may have.

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