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Thread: Softener system for new home - ATTN GARY

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    Water system engineer riverside67's Avatar
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    Default Softener system for new home - ATTN GARY

    Gary,

    We have discussed my new home in depth in other threads in regards to my well and it producing hard water. We spoke on the phone a few months ago regarding my anticipated domestic demands.

    Below is what you suggested based on a hardness of 340 ppm (20 grains):
    Clack WS-1 (1") control valve w/1.25" plumbing.
    4 cu ft resin tank

    My questions are...
    How much regular maintenance should I anticipate with a system of this size?
    How often would I need to service the valve?
    How hard is it to maintain the system?

    I am extremely handy and love working on things but have kind of a bad back and cannot lift heavy items on a regular basis. Is there a lot of heavy lifting involved when performing regular maintenance and/or adding salt?

    Thanks

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    Properly installed, you put salt in it and that's about it. It should not need anything for years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by riverside67 View Post
    Gary,

    We have discussed my new home in depth in other threads in regards to my well and it producing hard water. We spoke on the phone a few months ago regarding my anticipated domestic demands.

    Below is what you suggested based on a hardness of 340 ppm (20 grains):
    Clack WS-1 (1") control valve w/1.25" plumbing.
    4 cu ft resin tank

    My questions are...
    How much regular maintenance should I anticipate with a system of this size?
    How often would I need to service the valve?
    How hard is it to maintain the system?

    I am extremely handy and love working on things but have kind of a bad back and cannot lift heavy items on a regular basis. Is there a lot of heavy lifting involved when performing regular maintenance and/or adding salt?

    Thanks
    A 4 cu ft unit on 20 GPG water. You would have to use 500 gallon per day in order to regen every 8 days. IMO, a 4 cu ft is way over sized.

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    In the Trades Akpsdvan's Avatar
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    Not if there is 9 people in the house and there is 5 bathrooms with a pump that is doing 20+gpm..

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    Water system engineer riverside67's Avatar
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    The reason for the large system was due to the two high performance showers I have designed for my home. The master bath has the ability to demand 29 gpm if all heads were active and bath #2 can demand 15 gpm on it's own with all heads running. It is very likely that both showers will be used at the same time and I have configured both to individually run enough minimum gpm to keep my pump from cycling (above 5 gpm flow).

    I plan to run min 1.25" plumbing from the two HP water heaters in the garage to these bathrooms as well as a dedicated 0.5" hot water return line.

    The home is served by a well capable of 50 gpm flows and will have a 2" PVC line running into the home and soft water system.
    Last edited by riverside67; 01-27-2010 at 12:18 PM.

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    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skip Wolverton View Post
    A 4 cu ft unit on 20 GPG water. You would have to use 500 gallon per day in order to regen every 8 days. IMO, a 4 cu ft is way over sized.
    That's because I keep telling you that you don't know how to size softeners and you just go on'n on thinking I'm wrong.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

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    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by riverside67 View Post
    The reason for the large system was due to the two high performance showers I have designed for my home. The master bath has the ability to demand 29 gpm if all heads were active and bath #2 can demand 15 gpm on it's own with all heads running. It is very likely that both showers will be used at the same time and I have configured both to individually run enough minimum gpm to keep my pump from cycling (above 5 gpm flow).

    I plan to run min 1.25" plumbing from the two HP water heaters in the garage to these bathrooms as well as a dedicated 0.5" hot water return line.

    The home is served by a well capable of 50 gpm flows and will have a 2" PVC line running into the home and soft water system.
    If you actually mean to run both showers at the same time (which may be a typo above), then you need a constant SFR gpm of more than 44 gpm, and if so then you need a larger than 4 cuft softener with its 24-25 gpm constant Service Flow Rating.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

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    In the Trades Akpsdvan's Avatar
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    4 cubic foot system will work for the 44gpm.

    As the 4 cubic foot could handle 47/64gpm, but the valve would have to be 2"

    How often again would the high flow rate be reached? 2 minutes every 5 years?

    Another way of doing this would be to split the 4 cubic into 2 2cubic foot units with a first in and last out so that the low end flow is covered and the high end flow is also covered.

    If one goes to big then the slippage or leakage can and will take place when only 1-3gpm is used, 2 smaller units would not only see the lower flow better, but also cut down on the slippage or leakage.
    Last edited by Akpsdvan; 01-27-2010 at 07:46 PM.

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    DIY Senior Member Bob999's Avatar
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    Perhaps SST-60 resin would provide benefit in such a situation. The Manufacturer specs SST-60 at 7.5 gal/cubic foot--50% greater than the 5 gal/cubic foot for standard resin.

  10. #10

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    The water can only flow as fast as the valve will allow. Adding extra resin will not bring up the flow rate. Just because you size you unit to industrial standards and I don't, does not make me wrong.

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    Water system engineer riverside67's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    If you actually mean to run both showers at the same time (which may be a typo above), then you need a constant SFR gpm of more than 44 gpm, and if so then you need a larger than 4 cuft softener with its 24-25 gpm constant Service Flow Rating.
    No, that wasn't a typo...there WILL be times where both showers are running at the same time, likely even both at full bore, not that often have you, but it will happen occassionaly (once every week or two). I guess the big thing would be that the valve does not create too much friction loss (psi drop) or limit the ability of the water to flow at possilble full bore to both performance showers.

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    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by riverside67 View Post
    No, that wasn't a typo...there WILL be times where both showers are running at the same time, likely even both at full bore, not that often have you, but it will happen occassionaly (once every week or two). I guess the big thing would be that the valve does not create too much friction loss (psi drop) or limit the ability of the water to flow at possilble full bore to both performance showers.
    The Clack WS-1 has a SFR of 27 gpm @ 15 psi. That means it can be used on a tank up to and including a 21" diameter and that makes a 7.5 cuft softener. The 27 gpm means backwash flow gpm, it has nothing to do with the constant SFR gpm of the softener. The volume of resin dictates the size of the tank and the size of the tank dictates what control is needed to successfully backwash that volume of resin.

    So you don't need a larger control valve. And if you did you'd go to the 1.25" or 1.5", not a 2".

    The constant SFR gpm of a softener is controlled by the volume of resin in the tank, not the control valve.

    And as long as the constant SFR of the volume of resin is higher than the peak demand gpm, your 44 gpm, you can expect 0 gpg soft water. As soon as the peak demand gpm exceeds the constant SFR gpm, you get some of the hardness through the resin/softener. I am not talking about 44 gpm at 15 psi pressure loss or a 67 gpm max flow rate (@ 15 or 25 psi pressure loss. I am talking about the constant service flow rating of the volume of resin.

    If you don't mind getting hard water through the softener when both showers are running at full bore, you don't need a larger than 4.0 softener but, both showers totaling 44 gpm is all but 100% more than the constant SFR 24-25 gpm of a 4.0 cuft so the amount of hardness breakthrough should be close to 100% of your hardness gpg content. In other words, no softening until you turn a shower off or shut off the body sprays in one. Most of the water being used in the showers will be hot water meaning that any hardness leakage goes into the water heaters to cause scale build up. Any scale formation in the heaters should be dissolved over time but that means all hot water in the house will be hard until the scale is all gone; which may take a couple days.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

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    Water system engineer riverside67's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    The Clack WS-1 has a SFR of 27 gpm @ 15 psi.
    ok, just so I have this straight...if I have 65psi entering the home what psi should I expect in the showers after this water goes thru the softening system and two water heaters and about 100' of 1.25" copper?

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    In the Trades Akpsdvan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by riverside67 View Post
    ok, just so I have this straight...if I have 65psi entering the home what psi should I expect in the showers after this water goes thru the softening system and two water heaters and about 100' of 1.25" copper?
    There are going to be other things that come into dropping psi, elbows, unions , if the heaters have 3/4 inlet outlets, it is not just the system valve that is/will drop the psi on the flow rate.

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    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Sized correctly you won't know the softener is there, but I can't tell you how many psi you'll have at the showers. That depends on how many tees, elbows, valves you have and if you are running water and how much before the end of the 100' run etc..

    I can also tell you that the higher psi you run, the higher the pressure losses in the system and, the sooner the pressure tank empties causing the pump to come on.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

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