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Thread: New House, Shared Well, Iron and H2S

  1. #31
    DIY Senior Member Bob999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    I have already told Twinpeaksr what size filter and softener his house and family require. If you were my prospective customer I would tell you too; you aren't,
    My understanding is that this board is primarily about sharing information and helping posters with questions posted so I am a little puzzled by your response which seems to say I have to buy equipment from you to get answers to questions.
    Last edited by Bob999; 01-16-2010 at 12:58 PM.

  2. #32
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob999 View Post
    My understanding is that this board is primarily about sharing information and helping posters with questions posted so I am a little puzzled by your response which seems to say I have to buy equipment from you to get answers to questions.
    Yes it is Bob. And as you should see I answer posters questions in detail and have been for many years. And I've answered more of your questions to me than you answer of my questions to you. Why should I answer you when you refuse to answer me?

    I'll ask again, do you sell equipment Bob? Or are you someone that owns some equipment? IOWs, what is your experience in water treatment and why do you care what I tell posters here or what I do or don't say to them?

    Or at least answer this... why should I answer your questions to me when you are not looking for advice about your equipment or equipment needs or your water quality problems?
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  3. #33
    DIY Senior Member Bob999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    Or at least answer this... why should I answer your questions to me when you are not looking for advice about your equipment or equipment needs or your water quality problems?
    Out of courtesy and reciprocity.

    I answer questions you pose about water treatment and equipment when you are not looking for advice or information about your water quality problems. I do not, however, answer personal questions and I don't ask you personal questions.

  4. #34
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob999 View Post
    I answer questions you pose about water treatment and equipment when you are not looking for advice or information about your water quality problems. I do not, however, answer personal questions and I don't ask you personal questions.
    You answer questions I pose about water treatment while looking for advice about my water quality problems? Really. Show me one.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  5. #35
    In the Trades Akpsdvan's Avatar
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    Part of the challenge is that while that may be some new people here , some of the new people also have 20 years in this fun and crazy world of taking care of water for customers.
    Me, I know the area that I live in for the most part but am still to this day coming across new challenges that I have limited or not seen before.
    Water out side of where I live ,,, not a clue.. but there are some basics that do work be it here or some place else.

    Those of us that have been doing this for years have learned not just what is in books, but field work.. and we like to use what has worked in the past with few problems, those ideas or ways that have more problems we tend to not use unless we truly have to or do not even go there.

    Is there a piece of equipment for Every challenge? NO.. are there bad pieces of equipment ? no.. just equipment put on the wrong job.

    There are any number that come here with NO IDEA what is going on and are looking for a few clues as to what is going on.. some place other than a sales person coming and painting a blue sky for them..

    Years ago I was asked to sell on the web and I said NO... I work only in the area that I live in... and now as part of this form I will continue to do just that... help out when I can with answers if I can, clues if that is all that I can come up with.

    Maybe I said it well, maybe I did not , either way so be it..

    I will offer my ideas when I can and help when I can.

  6. #36
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    You said that just fine. I don't sell on the web either because I don't need to. We sell plenty around here without having to. But, these days you can pretty much find anything your heart desires out there, it's only a click away. I suspect that most pumps and filters get bought locally though because most folks have no idea how to install one and don't want to be bothered. Gary raises a good point about the BBB though and who do you trust?

  7. #37
    Engineer Twinpeaksr's Avatar
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    As I read through this thread (and others as well) it illustrates the fundamental issue when asking many people for their input on a problem: there is more than one right answer. Akpsdvan stated it, we use what we have found to work through experience, and like a safety net we stick with what we know works.

    From the receiving side of the knowledge, I need to inform myself well enough to make a good decision on what will work in my situation based on the pros and cons of the different recommendations from others.

    In this case I had 3 recommended system, based on the information from everyone here, I have been able to narrow down to the system that best fits my needs.

    Thanks!
    "Now Grab a Brick or go to Hell." - H. Simpson

  8. #38
    DIY Senior Member Bob999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    You answer questions I pose about water treatment while looking for advice about my water quality problems? Really. Show me one.
    Gary, Go back and read what I wrote. You have mischacterized it.

  9. #39
    DIY Senior Member Bob999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    I mentioned the hopper and mixing tank has a 21 gpm rating. That does not mean the filter or softener requires the same SFR rating. It does mean that a solution feeder system that you have mentioned would require a much larger retention than a 120 gallons or the mixing tank I use and most dealers won't use. And a larger than 15 gallon solution tank unless the person is going to refill it every few days or weekly etc.
    Gary, I don't understand how you come up with the statement the system would require "a larger than 15 gallon solution tank unless the person is going to refill it every few days or weekly".

    When I do the calculations for the use of solution with a 15 gallon tank it only needs to be replenished infrequently.

    For example, if a household of 5 is assumed and if they use a typical amount of water (60 gal/day/person) then there are 300 gallons per day to treat. If I add 100 gallons per day to do the necessary backwashes on equipment (a generous allowance) then the total water to treat per day is 400 gallons. If I assume that the treatment level is 4 PPM chlorine and use a 5 gal/day Stenner pump and inject the chlorine in front of the pressure tank with a pump that delivers 22 gallons per minute then the amount of solution from the tank per day is less than 9 ounces per day. So if I assume that the solution is made up in 10 gallon quantities the tank will have to be refilled every 142 days. I certainly wouldn't recommend that the solution be made up in such large quantities but it seems to me that the figures demonstrate that a 15 gallon solution tank is very generously sized for a typical home installation.

    I also don't understand the basis for your statement that "It does mean that a solution feeder system that you have mentioned would require a much larger retention than a 120 gallons or the mixing tank I use and most dealers won't use."

    My understanding is that the size of the retention tank required has nothing to do with the source of the chlorine--that whether it comes from a pellet system or a solution feeder system makes no difference in sizing the retention tank.

  10. #40
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob999 View Post
    Gary, I don't understand how you come up with the statement the system would require "a larger than 15 gallon solution tank unless the person is going to refill it every few days or weekly".

    When I do the calculations for the use of solution with a 15 gallon tank it only needs to be replenished infrequently.

    For example, if a household of 5 is assumed and if they use a typical amount of water (60 gal/day/person) then there are 300 gallons per day to treat. If I add 100 gallons per day to do the necessary backwashes on equipment (a generous allowance) then the total water to treat per day is 400 gallons. If I assume that the treatment level is 4 PPM chlorine and use a 5 gal/day Stenner pump and inject the chlorine in front of the pressure tank with a pump that delivers 22 gallons per minute then the amount of solution from the tank per day is less than 9 ounces per day. So if I assume that the solution is made up in 10 gallon quantities the tank will have to be refilled every 142 days. I certainly wouldn't recommend that the solution be made up in such large quantities but it seems to me that the figures demonstrate that a 15 gallon solution tank is very generously sized for a typical home installation.

    I also don't understand the basis for your statement that "It does mean that a solution feeder system that you have mentioned would require a much larger retention than a 120 gallons or the mixing tank I use and most dealers won't use."

    My understanding is that the size of the retention tank required has nothing to do with the source of the chlorine--that whether it comes from a pellet system or a solution feeder system makes no difference in sizing the retention tank.
    You are using book knowledge and attempting to apply it to real world situations without real world experience.

    At one time Bob I sold solution feeders and serviced many that other dealers sold. You have one and love it, good for you. I refuse to sell them to my DIY customers because of all my experience with them and people telling me of their problems with one over the 13 yrs I've been been on the internet and in emails.

    You are making incorrect assumptions Bob. I don't know what you are oxidizing and/or disinfecting with only 4 ppm of chlorine but you need a least that much or more for each ppm of iron, plus a variable amount for bacteria and then so much for H2S etc..

    How are you controlling the solution pump, a flow switch or the well pump pressure switch? And you think that 10 gals will last all but 5 months for a family of 5, go try that with a customer and see how it goes with ever decreasing solution strength. Good luck with that.

    I hope that people reading this don't take your figures to heart.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  11. #41
    DIY Senior Member Bob999's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
    You are using book knowledge and attempting to apply it to real world situations without real world experience.

    At one time Bob I sold solution feeders and serviced many that other dealers sold. You have one and love it, good for you. I refuse to sell them to my DIY customers because of all my experience with them and people telling me of their problems with one over the 13 yrs I've been been on the internet and in emails.

    You are making incorrect assumptions Bob. I don't know what you are oxidizing and/or disinfecting with only 4 ppm of chlorine but you need a least that much or more for each ppm of iron, plus a variable amount for bacteria and then so much for H2S etc..

    How are you controlling the solution pump, a flow switch or the well pump pressure switch? And you think that 10 gals will last all but 5 months for a family of 5, go try that with a customer and see how it goes with ever decreasing solution strength. Good luck with that.

    I hope that people reading this don't take your figures to heart.
    Gary--the 4ppm was an example. Changing the treatment rate within a fairly wide range will not change the conclusion because the treament rate is adjusted by varing the dilution of the chlorine injected in the example i posted. (I.E. so long as the injection pump is a 5 gallon per day pump and the well pump is producing 22 gallons per minute and the daily use is 400 gallons the required injection amount will be slightly less than 9 ounces per day.)

    In the example I stated that the chlorine feed was before the pressure tank. As you probably know when the feed is done that way the injection pump is typically controlled with the well pump pressure switch.

    I am using verifiable data and well explained calculations to raise questions about the assertions you have made.

    I suggest you post your specific assumptions that support the statement you made: "a larger than 15 gallon solution tank unless the person is going to refill it every few days or weekly" so that we can deal with facts in this discussion.

  12. #42
    That's all folks! Gary Slusser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob999 View Post
    Gary--the 4ppm was an example. Changing the treatment rate within a fairly wide range will not change the conclusion because the treament rate is adjusted by varing the dilution of the chlorine injected in the example i posted. (I.E. so long as the injection pump is a 5 gallon per day pump and the well pump is producing 22 gallons per minute and the daily use is 400 gallons the required injection amount will be slightly less than 9 ounces per day.)

    In the example I stated that the chlorine feed was before the pressure tank. As you probably know when the feed is done that way the injection pump is typically controlled with the well pump pressure switch.

    I am using verifiable data and well explained calculations to raise questions about the assertions you have made.

    I suggest you post your specific assumptions that support the statement you made: "a larger than 15 gallon solution tank unless the person is going to refill it every few days or weekly" so that we can deal with facts in this discussion.
    Your whole post was an example based on the 'book' not real world application Bob but no, I didn't see you mention injecting before the well pressure tank. Had I, I would have cautioned you about not doing that. It's a bad idea.

    Anyway, changing the "treatment rate" the way you describe it means the customer has to fool around with the solution strength in the solution tank. That adds more volume than your 10 gals Bob.

    That's the most common problem and PIA with a solution feeder. And in many cases it's nowhere as simple as adding more bleach or more water.

    Once you change the solution strength, you have to retest and possibly adjust either up or down some more but....

    You can only test after running enough water to get a current dose (treatment rate) strength, which can be 50-80% of the volume of your retention tank.

    And depending on what and how much of it you are using the chlorine for, like iron and manganese with some H2S and/or reducing types of bacteria, you may have to drain all the retention and start over with new solution.

    And then still adjust the strength or, the rate of feed but I guess your solution pump may not allow that because it may not have a rate of feed adjustment, I don't know, I just know it is the cheapest pump you could find.

    I have been there and done all that Bob and I have helped many people with solution feeders do it, it is why most people that have fooled with one for some time never want another one.

    That is why I use my pellet chlorinator instead of a solution feeder.
    Gary Slusser Retired (= out of business)
    Click Here to learn how to correctly size or program a water softener.
    CAUTION, as of Nov 12 2013 all YouTube videos showing how to rebuild a Clack valve have an error in them that can cause damage.

  13. #43
    In the Trades Akpsdvan's Avatar
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    Which Pellet chlorinator is it that you use?

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