I have a hydronic system. I currently have the boiler set @ 160-140 and have my mixing valve going to my radiant manifolds set to 150. I have a delta t of 20, I have 150F heading out of my loops and 130F returning. My floors are warm but I cant maintain house warmth. My stats had been set @ 68 which was comfortable during day and nights of outdoor temps in the 30's and 40's. Now temps in the teens and I cant hold room temps. Some rooms down to 60F and below. Still same out and return temps. Construction is new all rooms are insulated well. System is staple up under 3/4 advantech subfloor and 3/4 engineered hardwood. It has Foil double bubble with an air gap below and R13 below that. Any help or ideas will be greatly appriciated!!
Sounds like you need more loops. Who figured the heat loss? The problem will become worse as the temperature drops.
Theres alot more to Radiant design but, I'm curious
What size tubing, whats its spacing and did you use any plates?
I am using 1/2 inch tubing. no emision plates but foil double bubble stapled below runs in each bay. R13 under that. Fred Seton design 8 in. spacing. outside temps are averaging 30 day teens @ night. cant hold inside any better than 60-65. Just pruged system loops for air. Some but not signifcant.
It doesn't take much air to block flow...you might want to purge the lines again...
Important note - I'm not a pro
Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013
What are the surface temps of the floor during operation?
Also, please share square footage of home, number of loops, loop lengths and I'll run some basic calcs.
Any rooms without radiant or have other sources of heat?
Last edited by zl700; 01-05-2010 at 08:55 AM.
My house is 2 story approx 1300SQ' per floor. 8' ceiling on second floor 9.5 on the first. There is currently 8 1/2" loops (4 on each Floor) 8" on center. I have a taco 0011 pump achieveing a flow of about .6 GPM with all loops open. My output temp is 150 return is 130. getting air out made a slight differnce. Still only able to get 65F durring the day downstairs. Upstairs with doors closed I can get 67-68 durring the day. Zones seem to be all calling @ night and I hold low 60's downstairs mid 60's up but constantly circulationg.
Infrared is best but just find a thermometer and lay on floor and cover with a towel wait, and take reading
Infrared is best but just find a thermometer and lay on floor and cover with a towel wait, and take reading.
I don't know where you live so I am guessing your heat loss is in the 80,000 to 95,000 btu range.
So your loop lengths are around 210-230' each?
With a total of about 2000' stapled under the floor right?
Although 150 degree water for the floor is excessive and way higher than most designs are done, I know why you need it. ( I would rarely exceed 120-130 under hardwoods at 0 degrees outside).
At best you are transmitting 55,000 BTU to the home for heating.
Without a detailed heat loss and design, you seem to be shy about 30% of emitter needed. This can be done with supplemental heat such as an air handler, baseboard, radiant panels or fan convection units.
The best thing to do and should have been figured up front was the use of aluminum transfer plates to attach the tubing to the floor which improves heat transfer and spread and would of allowed lower water temps,, contributing to higher operating efficiency. Perhaps too late for second floor but 1st floor may still be accessible. If you go that route, I recommend at least 60% of the tubing under floor to be plated. You may also need a second mix valve to dial in the 1st floor better once plates are installed.
Radiant design and layout is a science, not sure who did yours but maybe you can go back after them.
What are you using for air elimination?
zl700 thanks for all your help I have regular air scoops on 90 elbows(not sure of the proper term). My loops are actually 400+' each. Hence the larger circ pump. I agree the 150 is high I just bumped up to try to get warm. My design was done by Fred Seton.
All material is from Blue Ridge Radiant they and Fred both said with proper foil double bubble wrap underneath in the joist bays that the transfer plates were not needed. www.radiantdesigninstitute.com/page4.html
I can still put them on the first floor which is worse off then the second. The first floor is existing constuction had 1X8 lapboard exterior so even though brand new insulation not quite as tight as second floor. The first floor is also 9.5' ceilings over unfinished basement which has 1 loop per joist bay 8" center and has foil double bubble and R13 underneath. It has the boiler and a pellet stove in the basement and stays about 50-60 degrees.
My dad has one of those infared thermometers. I will get temps for you today.
I had some air and purged all loops a couple of days ago. Its is definately better but still cant hold 68-70 overnight on the firstor second. Second drops to 64-65 and first to 60 or below. What should I be able to get as a high temp and hold. 67 is comfortable when outside temp is 40ish and no windchill. If I get to where I hold high 60's I should be ok (but would love to get into the 70's even though I am sure I would never set it that high!).
A couple serious questions I guess are the nail up fins that much difference? Its seems people used to strap copper up and have good outcomes with alot poorer insulation and window drafts!! I cant understand that a flat piece of aluminum can make 5-10 degrees difference especially in the secong floor where it is incased in an insulated bay and has no place to go. Also if I did a sandwich using quicktrax or something similar I would have the same amount of tubbing loops(BTU outut) as I do in the just bays 8" appart for the most part.
The other question is my flow rate. If I dont have a good flow rate that effects me obviously. My delta T is about 15-20 depending on outside temp and how many loops are flowing (never over 20 but can hold 20) which obviously hinges on outside temp. I am maintaining a miniumum of .5GPM usually more(depends on # of loops open). My loop flows are always pretty equal GPM reguardless of # of loops flowing. Do I need more flow? I am not sure what this will change. I can put a larger pump in currently a taco 0011. Again thanks for the support and help.
Just checked my floor temps with an infared thermometer. Upstairs I got 77-80 moving around. (thermostat @ satisfied @ 70 all loops closed.) Today I was able to hit and hold 70-73 up there. (it was warmer here and sunny high upper 30's). @ 5PM no loops up there were open and it was holding!!!
First floor I got floor temps of 70-75. Definately not as tight as upstairs. Drafts around entry doors and exterior walls. I hope the air bibbles were my prob we shall see its supposed to snow tonight and highs fri & sat in the low 30's sunday in the 20's. I am keeping my fingers crossed.
I would still like some one to look over my drawings I will email them. Also would like to know what my GPM flow should be.
I dont know much about it but could these outdoor thermostats help? Could the temp be dropping so fast after sundown that the loop can't keep up when it kicks on once indoor stat calls?