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Thread: Champion 4 Poor flush

  1. #1
    DIY Junior Member larrymcg's Avatar
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    Question Champion 4 Poor flush

    I have a new Champion 4 toilet (manufactured in 2009). When flushed it uses very little water (less than half of the tank) and the bowl does not refill very much at all. The flush is very quick. If you hold down the handle for a few seconds the flush uses more water and the bowl fills somewhat more but still minimal.

    There are only two adjustments: the water level and the length of the chain between the flush lever and the flush valve. The water level is about 1/2 - 3/4 inch from the top of the refill tube and the chain is fairly tight.

    Shouldn't the flush user more of the tank's water and take enough time to refill that the bowl also refills?

    If so, how can I make that happen?

    --Larry

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    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    Essentially none of the low-flush toilets use all of the water in the tank...the height is there for pressure just like a from a water tower - height=pressure.

    Now, if they didn't choose a properly calibrated fill valve, it might refill the tank before the bowl is full. The only way to tell if the bowl is getting enough water to refill, is to take a bucket and slowly add water. It will only go so high, as the excess will just flow down the drain. But, if you add it too fast, it will 'flush', and you won't get a good indication. If the fill valve isn't balanced, a call to American Standard may be worthwhile, but they'll probably brush this off as 'normal'. The only way to fix it is with a properly designed system, and they aren't the best at that.
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

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    DIY Member micp879's Avatar
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    If it used the entire tank of water, it would be using far more than 1.6 gallons; so that issue may be completely normal. Regarding the low water level in the bowl, make sure that the small tube from the fill valve is directed into the overflow tube. There should be a clip to secure it in the proper position.

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    DIY Junior Member larrymcg's Avatar
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    The flush valve stays open only about 1 second. So little water gets used that the tank refills very quickly so very little water gets back into the bowl. The bowl can hold a lot more water before it starts flowing down the drain. The small refill tube runs into the overflow tube and uses the small clip to attach it. The tube is not crimped or twisted.

    The flush valve just needs to stay open longer. Of course we can hold the handle down longer so that the flush valve stays open longer but it doesn't seem like that should be necessary. Unless this was one of the two flush speed toilets. But it isn't.

    --Larry

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    Retired Defense Industry Engineer jadnashua's Avatar
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    On a modern toilet, the flush valve does NOT stay open long. My guess is it's working per design. Doesn't mean that it works great.
    Jim DeBruycker
    Important note - I'm not a pro
    Retired Defense Industry Engineer; Schluter 2.5-day Workshop Completed 2013, 2014

  6. #6
    DIY Junior Member DIY Duder's Avatar
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    I have that same toilet. The specs say that the water line in the tank should be 1 inch below the rinse/refill tube. If your saying it's higher then that you may be using a little more water. But as for you concern about how long the popper stays open, it sounds like it's working as it should. American Standard has a video of it working on their web site. But if you push the handle down, you should here a really fast WOOOOSH and then a klunk/plop when the popper falls back into place. Most of the water on my Champion 4 seems to fall after you here the klunk. It should NOT drain the tank down to the top of the flush valve, and if its working properly the flush should be really strong, and really fast. Just use the water adjustment on the fill valve to get it so that the line is an inch below the refill tube and your good. But as for the bowl itself, it should only hold a little over a half gallon so the water line is a little lower. Also there's no adjustment for that. That's how the bowl is made. If you look at the first bend that goes down after the water leaves the bowl, and follow that line forward towards the bowl, that's where the hight of where the water line will be. Hope that helps.
    Last edited by DIY Duder; 12-29-2009 at 04:50 PM.

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    DIY Junior Member GIOTOILET's Avatar
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    Default champion 4 2009

    would like to ask about the performance of the toilet champion 4. I have 3 in the box not installed. Please help

    Thanks


    Quote Originally Posted by larrymcg View Post
    I have a new Champion 4 toilet (manufactured in 2009). When flushed it uses very little water (less than half of the tank) and the bowl does not refill very much at all. The flush is very quick. If you hold down the handle for a few seconds the flush uses more water and the bowl fills somewhat more but still minimal.

    There are only two adjustments: the water level and the length of the chain between the flush lever and the flush valve. The water level is about 1/2 - 3/4 inch from the top of the refill tube and the chain is fairly tight.

    Shouldn't the flush user more of the tank's water and take enough time to refill that the bowl also refills?

    If so, how can I make that happen?

    --Larry

  8. #8
    Plumbing Designer FloridaOrange's Avatar
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    From a performance standpoint my Champion 4 works very well.
    Matt
    Semi-professional plumbing designer
    Enjoying life in SW Florida

  9. #9
    In the Trades Gary Swart's Avatar
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    American Standard is not a very popular brand on this forum. The main problem seems to be defects in construction. Terry Love reports about a 20% return rate on them. If you get one without defects, they seem to work fairly well. Toto is the brand that most of us opt for both in quality of workmanship and performance.

  10. #10
    DIY Junior Member GIOTOILET's Avatar
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    Default Champion 4

    do you have any complains or issues with Champion 4

    Quote Originally Posted by FloridaOrange View Post
    From a performance standpoint my Champion 4 works very well.

  11. #11
    DIY Junior Member GIOTOILET's Avatar
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    Default champion 4

    Should I return my 3 champion 4 toilets 2009


    Quote Originally Posted by FloridaOrange View Post
    From a performance standpoint my Champion 4 works very well.

  12. #12
    Plumbing Designer FloridaOrange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GIOTOILET View Post
    do you have any complains or issues with Champion 4
    Quote Originally Posted by GIOTOILET View Post
    Should I return my 3 champion 4 toilets 2009
    Toto is not well represented in my area, but if I were paying out of my pocket and had the optin I would go with Toto. I got my Champion 4 for free as a "test model" from a rep. I have no problems and it flushes very well, as Gary stated American Standard has issues with quality control.
    Matt
    Semi-professional plumbing designer
    Enjoying life in SW Florida

  13. #13
    DIY Junior Member GIOTOILET's Avatar
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    Thank you for the post

    Quote Originally Posted by floridaorange View Post
    toto is not well represented in my area, but if i were paying out of my pocket and had the optin i would go with toto. I got my champion 4 for free as a "test model" from a rep. I have no problems and it flushes very well, as gary stated american standard has issues with quality control.

  14. #14
    In the Trades Gary Swart's Avatar
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    It's very easy to spend other peoples money, so I will refrain from saying that I think you should return the AS and get Totos. My advise is to go through this forum and read the comments that have been offered. Look at the Totousa.com website and read the history of Toto. Remember that no one on this forum is going to make a dime or lose a dime on your decision. Even though this is Terry Love's website and he is a strong believer in the Toto line, will not make a commission from your decision. The many positive comments about Toto toilets is based on personal experiences and are not a sales pitches although at times some of us do let our biases show. I would suggest that if you want to keep the AS, take them out of the boxes, examine them closely for flaws, and make certain that if unseen problems arise after installation that you can return them for full refund or exchange. You and I as DIY can take the time to do this whereas for a plumber to have to make the extra trips to and from your home to the supplier and remove and replace the defective unit(s) simply can't afford to do this without being paid for his time. For me, the choice would be simple, but you have to decide if saving a few dollars now is worth the gamble of having future problems.

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