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Thread: 12/2 with ground but outlet ungrounded

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    DIY Member draven8795's Avatar
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    Default 12/2 with ground but outlet ungrounded

    So my stove electronics died twice and finally tracked it down to the outlet not having a ground.

    I opened up the outlet and i do have 12/2 with a ground but the ground screw on the actually outlet is not connected.

    Can I simply connect a piece of copper wire from the outlet ground screw to the ground on the existing 12/2 with ground?

    I have done this and checked with one of those outlet testers and it says its grounded but I figured I'd ask here before I plug the stove in.

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    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by draven8795 View Post
    So my stove electronics died twice and finally tracked it down to the outlet not having a ground.

    I opened up the outlet and i do have 12/2 with a ground but the ground screw on the actually outlet is not connected.

    Can I simply connect a piece of copper wire from the outlet ground screw to the ground on the existing 12/2 with ground?

    I have done this and checked with one of those outlet testers and it says its grounded but I figured I'd ask here before I plug the stove in.
    The death of the electronics on you stove has nothing to do with the missing equipment grounding conductors unless there was a fault in the electronics in which case the equipment grounding would have only served to clear the fault and the electronics would have been lost any way.

    If the cable has a ground why not just replace the receptacle with the proper three wire receptacle?

    Am I missing something here?

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    DIY Member draven8795's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric View Post
    The death of the electronics on you stove has nothing to do with the missing equipment grounding conductors unless there was a fault in the electronics in which case the equipment grounding would have only served to clear the fault and the electronics would have been lost any way.

    If the cable has a ground why not just replace the receptacle with the proper three wire receptacle?

    Am I missing something here?
    Oh i think i mis-worded above. I have a 3 prong outlet already on the wall. However the actual three prong outlet does not have a ground wire connected to its ground screw. Whoever wired the house neglected to wire the ground wire to the outlet ground screw.

    Today I connected a piece of copper wire from the outlet ground screw to the ground on the 12/2. This should now be a grounded outlet correct and my stove should now be grounded?

    Am I thinking incorrectly that my stove would have died with or without the ground wire hooked up correctly?
    Last edited by draven8795; 12-19-2009 at 12:55 PM.

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    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Explain what the word stove means.

    Is this a gas cooking range?

    Is this a gas stove for heat?

    Is this a wood stove with a blower fan?

    What kind of stove is this?

    The equipment grounding conductor is installed in the event there is a fault to ground it will open the overcurrent device.

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    DIY Member draven8795's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric View Post
    Explain what the word stove means.

    Is this a gas cooking range?

    Is this a gas stove for heat?

    Is this a wood stove with a blower fan?

    What kind of stove is this?

    The equipment grounding conductor is installed in the event there is a fault to ground it will open the overcurrent device.
    Its a gas cooking range.

    Basically I just need to know if by connecting a new ground wire from the 12/2 wire to the three prong outlet. Am I grounded? My outlet tester says I am i just want some confirmation.

    If a surge occurred without this ground connected could it have wrecked the electronic equipment for controlling the oven.

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    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by draven8795 View Post
    Its a gas cooking range.

    Basically I just need to know if by connecting a new ground wire from the 12/2 wire to the three prong outlet. Am I grounded? My outlet tester says I am i just want some confirmation.

    If a surge occurred without this ground connected could it have wrecked the electronic equipment for controlling the oven.

    Without seeing the installation no one can say if it is correct or not. No the equipment grounding will not protect from surges.

    If the electronics on the gas range was lost due to a power surge then more electronics throughout the house would have been lost.

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    Retired tool & Die and Mechanic Giles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwelectric View Post
    Explain what the word stove means.

    Is this a gas cooking range?

    Is this a gas stove for heat?

    Is this a wood stove with a blower fan?

    What kind of stove is this?

    The equipment grounding conductor is installed in the event there is a fault to ground it will open the overcurrent device.
    Would there be a different wireing procedure for the type stove involved?

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    Electrical Contractor/Instructor jwelectric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giles View Post
    Would there be a different wireing procedure for the type stove involved?

    No. The installation sounds right to me.

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    Jack of all trades frenchie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by draven8795 View Post
    Its a gas cooking range.

    Basically I just need to know if by connecting a new ground wire from the 12/2 wire to the three prong outlet. Am I grounded? My outlet tester says I am i just want some confirmation.

    If a surge occurred without this ground connected could it have wrecked the electronic equipment for controlling the oven.
    You are at the outlet. If it's a metal box, you also need to ground the box.

    But, like Mike said, that's not what caused the stove electronics to go; and if it had been connected, it would not have protected the electronics. These are separate issues.

    It's still important, and a good thing you fixed it - the ground connection is there to protect you from getting fried.
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    DIY Member draven8795's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frenchie View Post
    You are at the outlet. If it's a metal box, you also need to ground the box.

    But, like Mike said, that's not what caused the stove electronics to go; and if it had been connected, it would not have protected the electronics. These are separate issues.

    It's still important, and a good thing you fixed it - the ground connection is there to protect you from getting fried.
    Great well I guess I'll call in an electrician to see what might be the problem. I added a GFI outlet because that was what the maytag man said but when i switched the power on it just tripped and wouldnt reset. Guess I'll call an electrician to see what he can diagnois.

    As for now i'm just using the regular grounded outlet i installed after the GFI. I'm confident its at least grounded.

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    Jack of all trades frenchie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by draven8795 View Post
    Great well I guess I'll call in an electrician to see what might be the problem. I added a GFI outlet because that was what the maytag man said but when i switched the power on it just tripped and wouldnt reset. Guess I'll call an electrician to see what he can diagnois.

    As for now i'm just using the regular grounded outlet i installed after the GFI. I'm confident its at least grounded.
    If the GFI wouldn't reset with your stove plugged into it, I'd guess there's a ground fault somewhere in the stove. That means it's probably unsafe to use. Gotten any shocks off it?

    Do you have a continuity tester? Check for continuity between the ground & neutral or hot.
    Master Plumber Mark:

    there is nothing better than the
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    while banging away on brass with a chisel and hammer...

    it smells like......victory......

    do not hit your thumb...
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    DIY Member draven8795's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frenchie View Post
    If the GFI wouldn't reset with your stove plugged into it, I'd guess there's a ground fault somewhere in the stove. That means it's probably unsafe to use. Gotten any shocks off it?

    Do you have a continuity tester? Check for continuity between the ground & neutral or hot.
    I didn't even have anything plugged into the GFI and I double checked that I had the load and line correct so something else is going on with it.

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    Jack of all trades frenchie's Avatar
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    Oh. Never mind, then.

    ...You got a receptacle tester?



    It might've been a faulty GFI, but that's pretty rare. So there might be something else weird going on.

    Reversed polarity, for example, would screw up the electronics on a stove, and maybe kill a GFI.
    Master Plumber Mark:

    there is nothing better than the
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    it smells like......victory......

    do not hit your thumb...
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    It is good for *safety* to have the stove plugged into a properly wired and grounded receptacle.

    So far as a ground being there and this protecting the stove electronics from "voltage surges", this is possible, but unlikely. The stove manufacturer would need to incorporate surge protection devices into the stove electronics. These parts would cost $1 more and manufacturers are cheap, so they don't tend to install these things. Also their sales of new stoves and repair revenues would go down if they made the stoves to last longer!

    With that said, it is a good idea to get surge protector power strips or surge protector outlets for each location where something electronic is plugged in.

    Also for things like a dryer, electric range, HVAC, etc. which uses 240 volts and for which surge protection power strips are not available, it is a good idea to install a "whole house surge protector" at the main electric panel.

    I have had a whole house surge protector and surge protecting power strips at each electronics gizmo outlet for about 10 years and have never had any problems with my electronic things. And I live in a rural area where the power frequently goes out (can create surges).

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    DIY Member draven8795's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy_Bob View Post
    It is good for *safety* to have the stove plugged into a properly wired and grounded receptacle.

    So far as a ground being there and this protecting the stove electronics from "voltage surges", this is possible, but unlikely. The stove manufacturer would need to incorporate surge protection devices into the stove electronics. These parts would cost $1 more and manufacturers are cheap, so they don't tend to install these things. Also their sales of new stoves and repair revenues would go down if they made the stoves to last longer!

    With that said, it is a good idea to get surge protector power strips or surge protector outlets for each location where something electronic is plugged in.

    Also for things like a dryer, electric range, HVAC, etc. which uses 240 volts and for which surge protection power strips are not available, it is a good idea to install a "whole house surge protector" at the main electric panel.

    I have had a whole house surge protector and surge protecting power strips at each electronics gizmo outlet for about 10 years and have never had any problems with my electronic things. And I live in a rural area where the power frequently goes out (can create surges).
    I wouldn't say I'm rural but on the outer skirts of a town. I had a surge protector plugged in but without the ground it sounded from my research that the surge protector wouldn't do anything. I'm going to call an electrician to come take a look and see if he can figure out anything. I found the part that keeps frying online and its a 147 bucks. Depending on what the electrician has to say i'll probably wind up buying the damn extended warranty for this stove as its 137 bucks for 4 years.

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