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Thread: Global Warming...

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Gills View Post
    Is that really what it will take to tax you guys? My God, you really don't like paying taxes do you.
    While Iím unqualified to contribute any worthwhile plumbing opinions or, for that matter, any worthwhile information about global warming, I feel a need to respond to this question.

    No, I really donít like paying taxes and I canít understand why anyone would.

    Thank you all for the lively discussion.

  2. #32
    Plumber Cass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frenchie View Post
    No, that's NOT how science works!

    "I don't know everything" is not the same thing as "I don't know anything". You don't have to wait until you understand everything, to say something about the parts you do understand.


    Newtonian physics, for example, is incomplete. It can't explain Mercury's orbit. It can't explain the way light bends when passing a large object. It can't explain a whole lot of other things... but it's accurate enough for designing & making internal combustion engines, bridges, trains, automobiles, roads, highrise buildings, and so on.


    Another example: is light a particle, or a wave? Do we have to wait until we know for sure which it is, before making light bulbs & lasers & cameras & light sensors & so on? Of course not.


    People have been breeding animals & plants for millenia - without understanding exactly how genes work, or even knowing there was such a things as DNA.
    Your right...but you are compairing things we have a lot of knowlege about to something that we are just in our infancy as far as learning...so tell me, in regards to the climate...that you admit we know very little about...in fact don't even know exactly how or what causes the normal fluctuations over thousands of years...
    how we know anything we do will work and how we can measure the response to what ever it is that we do...and determine that the response is from what we did and not a normal reaction that was going to happen regardless...

    If we can't do that then we have no business spending $$$ doing anything...we need to wait till we have more knowlege...

    What large steps in understanding global weather / climate effects have we made in the past 50-100 years

    Like said before the temp is rising on other planets at about the same rate it is here...how do we know what ever is causing that is causing it here also...we just don't know enough...

    BTW...Yes that is how Science works...thats why things scientists hold true sometimes change making them wrong in the past...not enough info...and thats why there are enough scientists now who will say we don't have enough knowlege about the climate to do anything at this time...
    Last edited by Cass; 12-27-2009 at 10:44 AM.

  3. #33
    Jack of all trades frenchie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cass View Post
    Your right...but you are compairing things we have a lot of knowlege about to something that we are just in our infancy as far as learning...so tell me, in regards to the climate...that you admit we know very little about...in fact don't even know exactly how or what causes the normal fluctuations over thousands of years...
    how we know anything we do will work and how we can measure the response to what ever it is that we do...and determine that the response is from what we did and not a normal reaction that was going to happen regardless...

    If we can't do that then we have no business spending $$$ doing anything...we need to wait till we have more knowlege...

    What large steps in understanding global weather / climate effects have we made in the past 50-100 years

    Like said before the temp is rising on other planets at about the same rate it is here...how do we know what ever is causing that is causing it here also...we just don't know enough...
    This is what I meant, about trying to get your science from political blogs.

    Only a half-dozen of the planets & moons seem to be warming - not all, or even most. And the causes are, in fact, pretty well understood for each of those cases.

    Start with the most blatant example: Neptune, is simply closer to the sun than it was 30 years ago. (FYI, orbits are elliptical, not round; and Neptune takes 164 years to go 'round once).

    Triton, is in the midst of it's southern-hemisphere summer, which puts the darkest part of the planet inline with the sun, you're familiar with the concept of albedo, right?

    Mars had a huge dust-storm in 2007, it's normal & expected that it warms up then.

    Jupiter, isn't warming overall, near as we can tell, it's warming near its equator while cooling at its poles.

    Pluto, is the only real head-scratcher - it's currently moving farther away from the sun (on its normal elliptical orbit), yet it seems to have warmed a few degrees, in the 14 years since we last checked. Nobody really knows why. But then I'm not sure what the confidence interval is on those measurements, in the first place. (Pluto is FAR, too far for the Hubble even to see its face, so we don't actually know much about it.)

    There's another huge weakness in that line of argument - which BTW I've yet to see any serious scientist espouse - we do have very accurate measurements on solar activity. To the extent that solar activity drives climate (and it does, for earth they figure it's about 0.5 to 1.5%), the drivers have all been going the other way for the last 20 years. If it was solar activity, we'd be cooling by now; and we're not.
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  4. #34
    Plumber Cass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frenchie View Post
    This is what I meant, about trying to get your science from political blogs.

    Only a half-dozen of the planets & moons seem to be warming - not all, or even most. And the causes are, in fact, pretty well understood for each of those cases.

    Start with the most blatant example: Neptune, is simply closer to the sun than it was 30 years ago. (FYI, orbits are elliptical, not round; and Neptune takes 164 years to go 'round once).

    Triton, is in the midst of it's southern-hemisphere summer, which puts the darkest part of the planet inline with the sun, you're familiar with the concept of albedo, right?

    Mars had a huge dust-storm in 2007, it's normal & expected that it warms up then.

    Jupiter, isn't warming overall, near as we can tell, it's warming near its equator while cooling at its poles.

    Pluto, is the only real head-scratcher - it's currently moving farther away from the sun (on its normal elliptical orbit), yet it seems to have warmed a few degrees, in the 14 years since we last checked. Nobody really knows why. But then I'm not sure what the confidence interval is on those measurements, in the first place. (Pluto is FAR, too far for the Hubble even to see its face, so we don't actually know much about it.)

    There's another huge weakness in that line of argument - which BTW I've yet to see any serious scientist espouse - we do have very accurate measurements on solar activity. To the extent that solar activity drives climate (and it does, for earth they figure it's about 0.5 to 1.5%), the drivers have all been going the other way for the last 20 years. If it was solar activity, we'd be cooling by now; and we're not.
    And we still don't know enough about the planet we live on as far as climate goes....man has for thousands of years wanted to control the weather...and it seems that we still do...

    All this political desire to "do something about global warming" has nothing to do with the climate...just follow the money...it is about control, power, and wealth...nothing more.

    Infact most of the scientists who are "sounding the alarm" stand to lose millions and millions of $$$ in grant money if they couldn't show it was happening...

    I haven't heard your answer to....

    how will we know anything we do will work and how we can measure the response to what ever it is that we do...and determine that the response is from what we did and not a normal reaction that was going to happen regardless...
    Last edited by Cass; 12-28-2009 at 04:58 AM.

  5. #35
    Senior Robin Hood Guy Ian Gills's Avatar
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    All this political desire to "do something about global warming" has nothing to do with the climate...just follow the money...it is about control, power, and wealth...nothing more.
    It's nothing at all to do with that.

    It is a little bit about blaming the Americans though.

    That's always fun.

  6. #36
    Plumber Cass's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Gills View Post
    It's nothing at all to do with that.

    It is a little bit about blaming the Americans though.

    That's always fun.
    If you truly think it has nothing to do with control, power, and wealth...

    then you know less about the history of American politics than I originally thought...and you truly are ignorant about such matters...

    On the other hand your remark may just be to get a rise from someone....it is hard to tell which...your camouflage is good...
    Last edited by Cass; 12-30-2009 at 05:44 AM.

  7. #37
    Senior Robin Hood Guy Ian Gills's Avatar
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    control, power, and wealth...
    Everything has to do with that which is why nothing is being done about global warming Cass.

    Wealthy Americans who like their cars too much do not want to pay more for their gas.

    Large corporations can only buy so many political favors with their campaign contributions. If the public is up in arms, voters always win.

    And $4/gallon gas would have most Conservatives up in arms.

    Poor Conservative "victims" who think they "deserve" the right to drive to work.

    Buy a diesel. Or better yet, take the bus.

    Your "freedom" is damaging my planet. So get over it.

    Besides, some nice energy taxes would be a good way of paying for your desperately needed healthcare reforms while narrowing the budget deficit.

    Which would mean less environmental problems for your kids to sort out and less debt too.

    It's all about America's children. You just gotta love 'em.
    Last edited by Ian Gills; 12-30-2009 at 09:06 AM.

  8. #38
    Extreme DIY Homeowner Scuba_Dave's Avatar
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    MA, like CA adopted strict emissions standards (2004), which diesel passenger vehicles fail
    So they are not sold (or were not) as new cars here
    So only used for sale....dunno why used older models are OK ??

    I'm not wealthy......and I do Not want to pay more for gas
    How about you pay $1-2 more per gallon to make you feel better & I get that as a discount on what I buy ?
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  9. #39
    Senior Robin Hood Guy Ian Gills's Avatar
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    Poor people should buy smaller cars if they cannot afford to drive big ones.
    Last edited by Ian Gills; 12-30-2009 at 10:16 AM.

  10. #40
    Extreme DIY Homeowner Scuba_Dave's Avatar
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    Poor people can't afford to buy cars
    That's crazy !!
    The American Govt should step in & give them cars
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    I have enough to do to my own house

  11. #41
    Senior Robin Hood Guy Ian Gills's Avatar
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    We need more Public Transport Dave, not PUBLIC Transport.

    God I love this country. It just needs a bigger Government doing things Governments should do.

    And I love Americans. I just wish more of them would step up and become Federal employees. It takes a special kind of person to do ones duty for the country and work for the Federal Government.

    Now if we could just get those pesky volunteer firefighters to join up, we might be on to something.

    I think an ex-volunteer would make a great member of staff in the Commodity Futures Trading Commission or the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission.
    Last edited by Ian Gills; 12-30-2009 at 12:29 PM.

  12. #42
    Extreme DIY Homeowner Scuba_Dave's Avatar
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    We ARE Americans !!
    We deserve BIG GAS guzzling VEHICLES !!
    We earned that right in 2 WW's
    A Hummer in every HOME !!
    England & Europe are so small, they don't need cars
    People over there should just walk every where & leave the gas for us
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  13. #43
    Senior Robin Hood Guy Ian Gills's Avatar
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    People over there should just walk every where & leave the gas for us
    We already do, and you already have it.

    That's the problem! Stop warming up my lawn with your F150s!

  14. #44
    Master Plumber Redwood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Gills View Post
    We need more Public Transport Dave, not PUBLIC Transport.

    God I love this country. It just needs a bigger Government doing things Governments should do.

    And I love Americans. I just wish more of them would step up and become Federal employees. It takes a special kind of person to do ones duty for the country and work for the Federal Government.

    Now if we could just get those pesky volunteer firefighters to join up, we might be on to something.

    I think an ex-volunteer would make a great member of staff in the Commodity Futures Trading Commission or the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission.
    I think you are right Ian...
    If your property catches on fire the volunteer firefighters should take a bus to get there....

  15. #45
    Plumber Cass's Avatar
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    Ian...be glad you don't live in Chicago (Obama Land)...in some places there you pay a fee every year for fire protection...and there have been cases when the FD was called out only to find out the people didn't pay there bill and they let the house burn down...

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