Vent To Nowhere

hj · Dec 17, 2009

pipe

1. IF you were to connect to that pipe in the corner for the drain, you could NOT use a Y and 1/8 bend, unless you also installed a proper vent.
2. You CANNOT tie a vent into that corner pipe, IF it is a drain from an upper floor fixture.
3. You can connect to that pipe at a point 6" above the overflow level of that fixture, or 42" above that floor level, whichever is HIGHER.

hj · Dec 17, 2009

drain

Your "proposed" revision would be so illegal it would not be funny. And it would also not be funny when it gurgled everytime you used the sink and had sewer gas odors in the kitchen. The fact that it "only" has a kitchen sink upstairs is exactly why you cannot make ANY easy connection to it for your sink. Yes, I meant 1930's, but the drawings would have been an improvement over 1030's plumbing, but are deficient when it comes to the 2009's. Well, at least under most codes. The IPC would probably consider them the cutting edge in plumbing technology.

Sponsor · 2022-01-29T12:20:58-0800

WallyGater · Dec 17, 2009

vent

Just to be clear, my proposed revision was for the vent only. I still had planed to keep the drain pipe where it is and running down to the basement. In other words I was proposing to just ADD a pipe, going over to the left and tying into that clean-out to function as a vent.

I should also add, that I have no plans at all, other than to follow the advice from the experts on this forum.

WallyGater · Dec 17, 2009

vent

Manhattan Beach.

FloridaOrange · Dec 17, 2009

wallygater said:
Just to be clear, my proposed revision was for the vent only. I still had planed to keep the drain pipe where it is and running down to the basement. In other words I was proposing to just ADD a pipe, going over to the left and tying into that clean-out to function as a vent.

I should also add, that I have no plans at all, other than to follow the advice from the experts on this forum.

Depending on the arrangement upstairs it may not be legally possible to tie that new vent into an existing drain line from above. Additionally vents need to run 6" above the flood rim of the fixture and be installed with a slight slope up towards the vent termination from the fixture. You cannot tie into the cleanout with a vent.

hj · Dec 17, 2009

vent

Still could NOT do it. The reason being, if that cast iron pipe were to plug up, the drainage would fill it and then start running through that vent, no matter WHERE it was connected, and then down your sink drain. This would create what is called a "secondary drain" and you would NEVER know the line was plugged up. Even when your sink plugged and overflowed, when you snaked it, it would not cure the stoppage in the other line.

dlh · Dec 17, 2009

now how would that be code compliant if there is a sink on the floor above draining into that pipe? you can not have a fixture on the floor above draining into the vent of a fixture on the floor below according to all codes i know of. now if you are suggesting the op run over to the sink location and then turn up and run a vent/aav then it would be legal and then you would not need to worry about the distance since that is from the vent not from the drain stack

Frenchie · Dec 17, 2009

Uh, guys - if the sink is less than 8' from the stack, he doesn't NEED a separate vent for the sink. Just needs to re-run the drain line, connect to the stack on this level, instead of the basement.

Not only legal, very typical in NYC.

...

Manhattan Beach? Sweet. I've spent 4th of July just across from you, in Breezy Point, a few years back. Lovely, lovely area, the ocean right there...

Wat too far, for me to offer to go see it in person, though. I'm in Prospect heights, by Grand Army Plaza.

hj · Dec 18, 2009

drain

Here it can only be 6' IF it is a 2" pipe. The "Philadelphia one pipe system" usually requires a larger vertical riser, which that 2" cast iron pipe might not satisfy for the requirement. The cleanout tee would NOT be a proper access point because it does not have the required "sweep" to it and is also probably too low.

Frenchie · Dec 18, 2009

The Phlly one pipe system - that's what he's got right now, right? Where everything connect down to the same pipe in the basement, that has a stack on the back end?

I ask, because the only other time I've ever seen it, was a house in Philly, and I remember thinking "how the heck does THAT work?"

Bunch of Straps in that house, too - they legal in Philly, too?

WallyGater · Dec 28, 2009

4 options

Option 1: New vent stack through roof (not happening)

Option 2: Vent into clean-out on left (not allowed)

Option 3 Leave what I have now and add an AAV (easy way out)

Option 4 Cap what I have now off in the basement, reroute new 2 inch
drain to stack on the left, no vent needed.

I like option 3. My buddy, (his house) likes option 4. HOWEVER, he says there is no way that he will cut that old cast iron pipe. He is afraid that it might crack, and or fall out of the roof. He says its way to old to mess with it.
He wants to reroute the drain into the clean-out. Assuming that we can get the plug out of the hole.

Assuming we find a fitting that achieves the proper sweep into that clean-out, and we maintain the proper slope to the new drain, and we use 2 inch pipe. Is this a good way to go?

Doherty Plumbing · Dec 28, 2009

hj said:
Here it can only be 6' IF it is a 2" pipe. The "Philadelphia one pipe system" usually requires a larger vertical riser, which that 2" cast iron pipe might not satisfy for the requirement. The cleanout tee would NOT be a proper access point because it does not have the required "sweep" to it and is also probably too low.

6' on 2"?? That's new to me! I learn something new everyday on this site.

If this guy was to wet vent his sink through the upstairs sink and the fixture drain we see in the basement (assuming that there is only one sink draining into this 3" line ... i read the posts quickly) he would have to install the drainage from the sink downstairs as not to create an "s-trap" (which at 1/4" per foot is 6' on 1.5" and 8' on 2"). This may be a problem with those 45's there offsetting the fixture drain.

Unless ofcourse this is not legal in his area? Our rules of wet venting seem to differ quite a bit!

Edit: Just saw your new diagrams.... Definitely do what you have on page #2.

WallyGater · Dec 29, 2009

diagram 2

Just to be clear, diagram 2 has no vent, and will be tied into an existing clean-out.

So far I have been told it will not work without a vent.
And I have been told that I cant use the clean-out to tie into.

Another problem with diagram 2 is: I would have to run the new 2 inch drain through the new cabinets. That is an exterior structural wall.
Adding a second wall in front of it is probably the solution to that, but the huge window above the sink would than have a lot of extra depth involving a jamb extension and so forth.

Before I go to all the trouble of building a new wall to accommodate this new drain, I would like to be sure that its even going to work.

Doherty Plumbing · Dec 29, 2009

wallygater said:
Just to be clear, diagram 2 has no vent, and will be tied into an existing clean-out.

So far I have been told it will not work without a vent.
And I have been told that I cant use the clean-out to tie into.

Another problem with diagram 2 is: I would have to run the new 2 inch drain through the new cabinets. That is an exterior structural wall.
Adding a second wall in front of it is probably the solution to that, but the huge window above the sink would than have a lot of extra depth involving a jamb extension and so forth.

Before I go to all the trouble of building a new wall to accommodate this new drain, I would like to be sure that its even going to work.

It does have a vent... it's wet vented.

I didn't notice the clean out ..... You'll have to replace the cleanout and install a proper fitting.

WallyGater · Dec 29, 2009

wet vented?

Can you explain what you mean by wet vented in diagram 2?

Also, can you explain exactly why diagram 3 will not work?

I would just like to have a better understanding of why I`m doing what I`m doing.

WallyGater · Dec 29, 2009

picture

picture of potential tie in point

Terry · Dec 29, 2009

You can't use a cleanout tee for the connection.
That would have to be replaced with a sanitary tee.

Venting a p-trap requires that the vent is on the horizontal trap arm.
In New York, within six feet on 2"
UPC only allows five feet on 2"

Drawing three goes down too far for venting to work.
The trap would siphon.
And that is the whole point in this.
If the trap is dry, you will be smelling the whole neighborhood from your kitchen.

And not the nice parts.

WallyGater · Dec 29, 2009

sanitary tee

I will be within 3 feet on 2inch. That is what I have in diagram #2

If I change the clean-out tee to a sanitary tee

Will the set up in diagram #2 be considered vented?

Is the 3 feet of 2 inch pipe considered the horizontal trap arm

Be brutally honest, I can take it

/

Terry · Dec 29, 2009

New York Plumbing

If you go with picture two

Change the clean out to a sanitary tee,
Trap arm from that, to the kitchen sink at 2% grade from the inlet of the santee,
(changed wording)
Connect to the dishwasher to the sink drain with an air gap fitting
( or if it's legal in NY, you might be able to high loop it)

Since the main stack is 2.5" and you are in New York, it's considered vented, at least from what I've been reading.

It wouldn't have been vented if it had been 2"

Oversizing the stack allows for wet venting.

For those of you in the Western States, this wouldn't fly.
You have to be East Coast for this method to fly with the inspectors.

WallyGater · Dec 29, 2009

NY plumbing

Thank you Terry for your reply and patience.

What is meant by "Trap arm from that"

I think I get it now

You mean the 3 feet of 2 inch pipe is the horizontal trap arm.

keep it 1/4 inch pitch per foot

One more thing

The outlet of the santee is 1. Where it goes into the vent stack
2. The other end

It should have read inlet of the santee, the part the trap arm is connected to.
I went back and changed it above in my previous post.
Terry

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